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  • #31
    Originally posted by Calboon View Post
    Just to be clear do you mean passively get 9-12 for DV or are they pumping their stats each round with excellency. My players are not that interested in optimization so I am unsure how you are getting numbers that high.




    More pumping. The highest DV you can get passively is 7, but if you're melee focused it can basically be 8 if you activate fivefold bulwark stance. The thing is even without optimizing, like dex 3 and melee 5 it's really easy to get super high. If you've got a specialty if your weapon that stat line alone gives you a base of 6 with a medium weapon, and able to pump up to 11 with a stunt and full excellency if you want. Also the game really really incentivizes you to get five in the abilities that you want to use, almost every ability has the ability requirements for its charms shoot up to 5 really fast, so maybe you don't want 5 melee because you're not interested in maxing out your male dicepool, but if you want iron whirlwind, then you need it. So you have to be really dedicated to not maxing out your character, and just accept that means never using that cool power to spin through the battlefield striking four opponents as you go.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ParanoiaCombo View Post
      PS: Worst combat ability in terms of pure mechanical effectiveness in a wide variety of situations: Thrown. Instead of finding situations to use thrown, you build your approach to every situation around thrown. Thrown is poopy from a fun perspective after the 1st time you red-paste a target.
      Yeah. I feel like all of the other combat Abilities have Charm trees that build from an eclectic array of nifty tricks into something recognizable as a coherent or unified (or at least flexible) approach to combat, while Thrown doesn't really. I love the shit out of Charms like Joint-Wounding Attack and Swarm-Culling Instinct, but so much of the rest of the set leaves me thinking that I could invest dozens of purchases in Thrown without getting any better at fighting, just better at the gimmicks I was already trying to use too much.

      If the set had an identity like "always projecting threat at all enemies within Short range" and then built around that with things like, I dunno, a reflexive attack when someone enters your threat zone, I could see it being a lot more attractive to more concepts. Right now though it seems like a Thrown character chooses between "annoying disarm monkey" or "alpha strike monster with no follow-up" or "bitchin' assassin who tries to never interact with his enemies" and that's about it. Not exactly concepts that make me happy, either as player or as Storyteller.

      But I'm wandering a little. I really like the underlying engine of 3E's combat system. Really like it. So much that I wish the Solar Charmset did more interacting with it and less curbstomping of it. Oh well.


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      • #33
        I dunno DrLoveMonkey - it sounds like my players don't get as much out of their motes. Blowing a full excellency is 8-10 motes and you only have 46 at essence 1 plus ten per each essence dot you gain. using 1/5 of your total mote pool(before factoring in other charms) is a pretty quick way to drain yourself dry. Especially if you do the same on defence. In my game, such behaviour proves punishing as the fight drags on and they find themselves not-all-that-much closer to victory and start scraping the barrel each turn.

        Worse if you've been using motes on other activities by the time the fight rolls around. (I kinda took the resource drain path from the DnD DM guide books to heart, I guess)

        If my players spent even a sliver of their time preparing prior to a battle that their foes do, maybe it wouldn't be so "balanced". I don't know because it's never happened and the first round or two is spent getting their scene long buffs up.


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        • #34
          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          Also the game really really incentivizes you to get five in the abilities that you want to use, almost every ability has the ability requirements for its charms shoot up to 5 really fast, so maybe you don't want 5 melee because you're not interested in maxing out your male dicepool, but if you want iron whirlwind, then you need it. So you have to be really dedicated to not maxing out your character, and just accept that means never using that cool power to spin through the battlefield striking four opponents as you go.
          Yeah, this. I really wish that the game had been more conservative with the Ability minimums. It's already hard as a player to resist the urge to crank your stats up as high as they can go. When the game basically tells you "Look at the shiny toys, btw you need a 5 for them" you can just forget it, it is going to happen right away. Which means that max or near-max dice pools aren't the exception, they're the baseline that the system (and the ST) has to handle. I'm not at all convinced this is a good thing.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by Ferryman View Post

            Yeah, this. I really wish that the game had been more conservative with the Ability minimums. It's already hard as a player to resist the urge to crank your stats up as high as they can go. When the game basically tells you "Look at the shiny toys, btw you need a 5 for them" you can just forget it, it is going to happen right away. Which means that max or near-max dice pools aren't the exception, they're the baseline that the system (and the ST) has to handle. I'm not at all convinced this is a good thing.
            And the rule book tells you it is explicitly ok to take fives at char gen.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
              I dunno DrLoveMonkey - it sounds like my players don't get as much out of their motes. Blowing a full excellency is 8-10 motes and you only have 46 at essence 1 plus ten per each essence dot you gain. using 1/5 of your total mote pool(before factoring in other charms) is a pretty quick way to drain yourself dry. Especially if you do the same on defence. In my game, such behaviour proves punishing as the fight drags on and they find themselves not-all-that-much closer to victory and start scraping the barrel each turn.

              Worse if you've been using motes on other activities by the time the fight rolls around. (I kinda took the resource drain path from the DnD DM guide books to heart, I guess)

              If my players spent even a sliver of their time preparing prior to a battle that their foes do, maybe it wouldn't be so "balanced". I don't know because it's never happened and the first round or two is spent getting their scene long buffs up.
              I don't be find that, usually what happens is players blow half their mote pool in the first 1.5 turns and then nothing is left to fight. Maybe like one guy but we sometimes end the combat at that point because a 5 on 1 when the five is solars and the one is not just dragons on extra time.

              Also my players, and I when I am one, spend motes kind of strategically. If we've got 18 dice to hit without spending essence and we know the enemy's defence is 4, then we won't full excellency that attack. Maybe two notes for the sake of being a round 20 or something.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                I don't be find that, usually what happens is players blow half their mote pool in the first 1.5 turns and then nothing is left to fight.
                Maybe change that occasionally to "and then the rest of the combat arrives/reveal themselves/go through Final Form Transformation/et cetera"? It is one of the tricks that helped me.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ferryman View Post

                  Yeah, this. I really wish that the game had been more conservative with the Ability minimums. It's already hard as a player to resist the urge to crank your stats up as high as they can go. When the game basically tells you "Look at the shiny toys, btw you need a 5 for them" you can just forget it, it is going to happen right away. Which means that max or near-max dice pools aren't the exception, they're the baseline that the system (and the ST) has to handle. I'm not at all convinced this is a good thing.
                  I don't know, admittedly I haven't played yet, but the character I built (a Night with Supernal Athletics that I ended up not going above Essence 1 charms with) has no 5s in any Attribute or Skill, yet looks like he's going to be lots of fun to play in and out of combat. I just didn't approach the character creation process with "must win at all costs" as a consideration.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by danelsan View Post
                    Maybe change that occasionally to "and then the rest of the combat arrives/reveal themselves/go through Final Form Transformation/et cetera"? It is one of the tricks that helped me.
                    This is something that me and my fellow ST have taken to doing but I'm worried it feels really cheap "these guys were protected by the perfect defence of not being rolled into combat!"

                    Admittedly when I have done combats with two or three waves it's often worked out quite well.

                    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post

                    I don't know, admittedly I haven't played yet, but the character I built (a Night with Supernal Athletics that I ended up not going above Essence 1 charms with) has no 5s in any Attribute or Skill, yet looks like he's going to be lots of fun to play in and out of combat. I just didn't approach the character creation process with "must win at all costs" as a consideration.
                    When I brought it up I was more talking about cool abilities than necessarily powerful ones. Like Shockwave Technique, you pick up an enemy that you have in a grapple and bodily throw them INTO a group of foes, making for monster bowling. That's really cool, and easily something somebody making a brawl supernal character could look at and say "yes, I want to do that, I want to hit a dude with another dude." At which point it doesn't matter if his character concept included being a master of Brawl, if he doesn't have five dots of brawl he doesn't get to do shockwave Technique. Or to go ever so slightly further into the tree Apocalypse Flare Attack, if you ever want to launch a super Hadoukamehameha, you need brawl 5. Even if you want it to be a thing that your character eventually learns to use later, it and the prerequisite charms require brawl 5/5/5/4/3 going back down the tree.

                    I don't really care about winning at any cost, clearly my current character has four attack dice, but he still has 5 athletics because I can't get Ten-Ox Meditation without it, and without that charm I can't do cool Strength 7 required effects.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ferryman View Post

                      Yeah, this. I really wish that the game had been more conservative with the Ability minimums. It's already hard as a player to resist the urge to crank your stats up as high as they can go. When the game basically tells you "Look at the shiny toys, btw you need a 5 for them" you can just forget it, it is going to happen right away. Which means that max or near-max dice pools aren't the exception, they're the baseline that the system (and the ST) has to handle. I'm not at all convinced this is a good thing.
                      IRC when ParanoiaCombo discussed before using self imposed constraint on Ability stats to keep the game in the challenging and interesting zone (much like DrLoveMonkey is here, correct me if I'm wrong guys), and there was the objection that this is weird when it comes to mortals, where the ST has either a) constrain mortals to a lesser zone (e.g. no mortal hero with Ability > 2-3), or b) have Solar Exalted who standardly have fewer dots in their speciality Ability than the most capable mortals.

                      I think that would hint at an similar issue maybe if you just dropped Ability minimums for Charms - players would still pump the Ability stats because "After all, I'm a Solar and the best in the world!", so the main effect wouldn't be lower stats, rather just be that you'd have generally stronger characters who only take incidental dots in Abilities outside their speciality (as they could and would take more powerful Charms).

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                      • #41
                        I dunno, it's an interesting idea. I think that players would still invest in Abilities (they're inherently valuable - raising one's base dice pool/derived values and Excellency cap is more than enough reason to do it already). Permanent Essence already plays the role of gating progression more effectively than Ability minimums ever will. I'm not sure the system really needs Ability minimums for any mechanical reason. The more I think about it, the more attractive I find the idea of either minimizing them or just eliminating them entirely.

                        I'm not sure doing so would solve the issue of a tilted power scale that's been mentioned here, but even if it didn't I'm not seeing much of an argument for keeping them either.


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                        • #42
                          I'd just like to jump in and agree with the statement of the OP - combat in Ex3 is pretty awesome.

                          And I really lucked out with my group. The dawn caste brawler with 20 brawl charms is played by the opposite of a "power gamer." She's the wizard in D&D who just picks and casts whatever spells look neat at the moment. In Exalted, I often get the feeling that, "how do I win this fight efficiently?" is the last question on her mind, so her overwhelming power doesn't come close to trivializing all conflict. She's scary as hell, and usually wins, but she wins dramatically. She fights like someone who doesn't fully understand her own strength or limitations, getting just as much into her character during combat as any other moment in the game. To my mind, that's the real genius of this system.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Ferryman View Post
                            I dunno, it's an interesting idea. I think that players would still invest in Abilities (they're inherently valuable - raising one's base dice pool/derived values and Excellency cap is more than enough reason to do it already). Permanent Essence already plays the role of gating progression more effectively than Ability minimums ever will. I'm not sure the system really needs Ability minimums for any mechanical reason. The more I think about it, the more attractive I find the idea of either minimizing them or just eliminating them entirely.

                            I'm not sure doing so would solve the issue of a tilted power scale that's been mentioned here, but even if it didn't I'm not seeing much of an argument for keeping them either.
                            Removing Ability prereqs wouldn't really solve this problem and would introduce a number of other ones. They very strongly affect what you can easily take outside of your specialties.

                            If you don't want players to have lots of 5s, then either tell them that, or use a character creation method based on XP, so they aren't so heavily encouraged to do so.

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