Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Glorious Solar Plate + MA

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
    I think the potential downside would be that character might overshadow the other characters and make the game less enjoyable for those players. In the end that's what's important.
    The first Evocation of Moonlit Huntress, Artifact 3, costs just 1 willpower and gives you 15 initiative and a reflexive aim.
    Edit: you know, that was a bad example.
    How about Luminous Warden (from Brilliant Sentinel), which removes up to 3 dice of decisive damage from all attacks for 3 motes (and 3 anima levels)?
    +6 soak +6 hardness for 14 motes and a wp isn't really going to overshadow that.
    Last edited by Fata-Ku; 03-17-2017, 12:34 PM.


    Former bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
    Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

    Comment


    • #47
      If you allow Glorious Solar Plate with MA, how would you treat the MA charms that increase soak?

      Comment


      • #48
        Personally I'd just let it stack, because activating already GSP starts you off with -14m and a wp (10 commited from GSP and 4 released from Silken Armor), which is a pretty huge dent to have in your pool at the beginning of combat.

        Though admittedly I'm pretty much only looking at DPC right now since it's the one that is most relevant to my game:
        It renders Pearlescent Filigree Defence pretty moot, replaces its main effect, removes its Mastery effect and basically only keeps the soak-enhancer. (and that's another thing, PFD creates armor that's explicitly compatible with DPC; is it not upgradable with GSP? Seems like a ruling that creates lots of fun-killing exceptions for players who are thinking creatively about combos).

        Wearing only Robes, you could have scene-long Artifact Light Armor for 1 mote, instead you paid 11m +1wp for heavy armor. Seems like a fair trade-off.
        Wearing Steelsilk Armor, you don't even need PFD's primary effect, but chose 14m+1wp for the upgrade. Fine by me. You're reducing your pool by 2 full activations of PFD-for-soak-boost.
        Last edited by Fata-Ku; 03-17-2017, 01:07 PM.


        Former bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
        Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Totentanz View Post
          Ultimately, it's your game. You don't need the permission of random peeps on the internet to allow it. We are just suggesting there are potential negative consequences for game balance, and that this particular interpretation of the rules isn't intentional
          I'm not advocating. And I'm not seeking permission. I'm pointing out that if anyone's concern is based on "balance", then you should take some time to really look at the numbers, because it's neither as gross nor terrible as some people have suggested.

          I said at the start that I don't know if I'll run with it. I'm still unsure; I haven't yet reached that bridge yet though so I've got time to puzzle it out. Having this conversation is part of that, but I just wanted it to be clear that "too much power" in this instance is not actually a qualified concern. Especially considering the costs involved. Unless, of course, I've missed something specific and anyone would like to point that out? Are my numbers wrong? Is there a deeper inference to scale that I'm lacking because I just haven't run into the same speed bumps as a lot of other people when running the game?

          I'm here to learn. "You do you" is implicit though, yeah?


          My Homebrew: Architect of the Regal Puppet Style (WIP) || Monkey Style || Radiant Halo of Incandescent Might || Pale Driver, Ruination of the Edifice of Tyranny || Sublime Percussion, Just a Whole lot of Fun || Idris, The Graceful Heart of Purpose

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
            The MA devotee either has a slow climb to essence three and all their best tricks (most styles don't even give you the form charm until ess2 which is at least 10 sessions away) OR is MA Supernal, in which case they have a slow climb (25 sessions) to that shiny "I get to wear the best armor now" charm.
            And a Melee/Brawl character faces the same choice in deciding whether to be offensive supernal or resistance supernal (assuming these characters are supernal in either skill). And they only get to spend their regular XP on either. Martial Artists get to spend regular XP on resistance and solar XP on MA, so at any given essence cap, the martial artist has the potential to have more combat related charms.
            Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
            Are they spending Solar EXP on MA? Great, their attributes and abilities and advantages will be lower on average or they don't pick up Sorcery as heavily - but they still get an awesome Solar native charm support kit like dodge or stealth or performance or whatever supporting ability the MA is built around.
            Charms beat ability and attribute dots for combat power. That's the reason Solar XP aren't meant to buy you native charms: so that characters have some incentive to actually consider raising their dots (which in 2E wasn't really the case; you only bought dots as needed for the next charm).

            Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
            Non MA is exactly the same, except if they choose the slow climb to "I get to wear the best armor now" they can instead go "or I'll just buy it outright with less cost than the MA guy did picking up his passport to combat". They still get their rounded 15 charms at char gen (focusing on combat or whatever spread they like) and 15 more charms on the rise to GSP with (3- whatever you picked up at chargen) devoted to getting GSP specifically. Oh, and all that Solar EXP they aren't spending on Martial Arts? Well, lets just top up some skills or an attribute or, hmm maybe Sorcery looks like a good idea right now or - cool I can make evocations for my armor and get that too!
            For a non resistance supernal to start with heavy artefact armour comes with serious drawbacks: You have to wear it to be able to use it, and sane people do not walk around in heavy armour if they can help it. It's heavy, sweaty, loud, chafes, and it puts people off if you walk around in their presence obviously dressed for battle.
            And it assumes that you were able to actually get heavy artefact armour. Not all character concepts support that. GSP is not the same as heaving a real suit.

            The martial artist has everything the non martial artist had (minus a few background dots), and in exchange gains access to powerful combat charms bought with solar XP.

            The fact that Solar XP buys 'not really charms' is actually something I consider a problem. It was meant, as I understand it, to be a way to allow characters to round out their mundane traits without players feeling like their shortchanging themselves on charms (because charms are more powerful), but because solar XP still buys MA, sorcery and evocations, that's not really true.

            Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
            Oh but hey, wearing armor all he time is a drag, such a good thing those charms we're picking up anyway specifically negate that worry! But sure, lets now balance the game on how much additional roleplaying is required for a mechanical choice like wearing armor (BO? Seriously? Like I get that it's a thing and all but, no. I don't consider more role playing opportunities a "cost".)
            The charms alleviate some of the issues, yes (to the point where they obviate the need for GSP unless you don't own such a suit, actually). But as it is obviously a tree for armour wearers, why is a serious martial artist looking at them rather than the dodge or unarmoured resistance tree?
            And the question of wearing armour or not at any given moment isn't just 'more roleplaying'. If you're wearing plate armour and smell like a hog, you're not getting an audience with the Lord. You won't be let into the ball wearing chainmail. The city guard is going to carefully watch the armoured person mingling in the market square. Inn owners won't appreciate you tearing up the sheets by sleeping in armour. When it's mundane armour, you'll not want to wear it in rain, unless you like rust.
            Putting on armour is always a trade off, and very often, you won't be. Martial artists are at an advantage in such situations because they don't need armour to fight at full effectiveness.

            Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
            My point is not that MA people somehow are the misbegotten sub-race of Solar Exalted. Just that GSP combined with it is sooo far from game breaking a game that has Melee's all-in-one charm suite and picking it up is possibly the furthest thing from a "discount soak" that is being implied in here, being that it is, instead, more costly to obtain in both OOC game resources, time spent playing the game, and IC game resources.
            Misbegotten despite having nearly a dozen different styles in the corebook alone? Having resistance charms tailored to their needs?

            The reason that GSP is so costly for martial artists is that it's not a charm intended for use with MA. Non-martial artists get more use out of it because it was written for them. In the same vein, martial artists get more out of the unarmoured soak tree compared to other people wearing armour.

            Originally posted by Fata-Ku View Post
            I'm pretty sure Martial Arts aren't so precariously balanced that adding a soak-enhancer, which only works if you're wearing a specific piece armor, to your Style is gonna break anything. At that point it's basically an Evocation, and not even a particularly powerful one.
            But if one charm and one piece of armour are the only way for martial artists to gain the best soak, that's going to mean every PC martial artists will be pushed to grab those. Silken armour will stop being something cool and unique and become a baseline requirement of MA, GSP will put lie and pointlessness to the MA armour restrictions.

            Character variety will suffer.


            I thank the Devs for the great game of Exalted!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by BjornTheFellhanded View Post


              But if one charm and one piece of armour are the only way for martial artists to gain the best soak, that's going to mean every PC martial artists will be pushed to grab those. Silken armour will stop being something cool and unique and become a baseline requirement of MA, GSP will put lie and pointlessness to the MA armour restrictions.

              Character variety will suffer.
              Right. Because of an inefficient soak-booster which requires heavy investment into Resistence.


              Former bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
              Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Fata-Ku View Post
                Right. Because of an inefficient soak-booster which requires heavy investment into Resistence.
                If it's so ineffective, why does anyone want it given the unarmoured resistance options?

                If you impose a limitation (armour restrictions for MA), but offer a single way around it (GSP), people are going to feel encouraged to pursue that one offered option.


                I thank the Devs for the great game of Exalted!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by BjornTheFellhanded View Post

                  If it's so ineffective, why does anyone want it given the unarmoured resistance options?
                  So if *anybody* wants it, it's automatically overpowered? You seem to have a very black-and-white view of the issue. I said it's inefficient, not useless.

                  If you impose a limitation (armour restrictions for MA), but offer a single way around it (GSP), people are going to feel encouraged to pursue that one offered option.
                  There is already a baked-in way around it. Steelsilk Armor. If it was so important for the unarmored style to remain unarmored, why is there an armor that specifically works with them?

                  Also, armors have Evocations. Between GSP and a player hamming up an armor Evocation that is "totally-not-GSP", I prefer they stay honest.
                  Last edited by Fata-Ku; 03-17-2017, 11:35 PM.


                  Former bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
                  Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I'd like to ask a few specific questions on this;

                    1 - Is the concern; "styles like Ebon Shadow, Dreaming Pearl, Black Claw and Crane have synergistic effects that make a scene long +6 Soak and Hardness, -3 Decisive damage specifically against energy type attacks, and immunity to crippling injuries to their limbs (specifically where they are physically removed from the body). This synergy exceeds a power comparison to other valid character concepts. This excess of power is not appreciably diminished by requiring a specialised artifact, additional mote commitment, and a full combat action to activate"?

                    2 - If this is the case, what are these synergies? I would like to make a more thorough assessment, and I haven't found anything so far on my own.

                    3 - Is the concern; "While no specific style gains any specific benefit of higher armoured soak totals; in general, more soak is preferable to less soak and allowing this particular access to more soak is so easy and cost effective compared to all other options that it becomes the 'standard choice' for all such combatants"?

                    I am fortunate that I don't have to concern myself with things like, multiple characters taking the same options, players feeling their choices have been invalidated or adhering to wider cosmetic/thematic implications. These mechanics are what I am trying to focus on, both because it would help me shape my own custom content and you can never have too much reading comprehension.


                    My Homebrew: Architect of the Regal Puppet Style (WIP) || Monkey Style || Radiant Halo of Incandescent Might || Pale Driver, Ruination of the Edifice of Tyranny || Sublime Percussion, Just a Whole lot of Fun || Idris, The Graceful Heart of Purpose

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      To note: the RAW pretty clearly allow GSP + Silken Armor combo, and the RAI isn't all that clear, since the Charm never goes out of its way to mention how it affects weight class or Martial Arts. Since it doesn't replace the armor and doesn't affect its weight class, appearing only as "cosmic runes" (how would those interfere with M-A exactly?) a straight-forward reading suggest a M-A-compatible armor stays M-A-compatible.

                      (Additionally, I find the fact that it specifically appears as Cosmic Runes instead of magic armor pieces pretty telling of the intent, but that's pretty subjective)
                      Last edited by Fata-Ku; 03-18-2017, 10:23 AM.


                      Former bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
                      Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
                        I'm here to learn. "You do you" is implicit though, yeah?
                        Well, it ought to be, yes. But sometimes arguments on the internet get heated, or at least we perceive heat because our conversations are text only.

                        So, here's my primary concern. The Silken-Armor+GSP thing grants a lot of soak to fighting styles that already have powerful defensive charms of their own. I wouldn't really want a Snake Stylist running around with Heavy armor in my game. Especially given that there are other soak-enhancers. That's not to say that soak is the be-all, end-all. There are plenty of soak bypassers out there. I just worry about the implications of all that soak on top of the evasive options SS has to offer ( and of course that additional Essence bump to soak).

                        Part of my reluctance stems from my relative inexperience with MA in general, honestly. I've run several simulations with the various Martial Arts to get a feel for them, but I haven't run long-term games with focused Martial Artists. My long history of roleplaying in general, though, tells me to be cautious about end-runs like this. It can be a huge letdown to tell a player their build is hurting the game and needs to be changed.

                        Also, I get the impression that in many cases Ex3 stuff was written in a vacuum. The unclear wording and lack of connective rules tissue (like Counterattack rules) leads me to believe the 'loophole' in GSP applying to MA was not intentional. I could be wrong, of course.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Totentanz View Post
                          My long history of roleplaying in general, though, tells me to be cautious about end-runs like this. It can be a huge letdown to tell a player their build is hurting the game and needs to be changed.
                          Agreed: Generally speaking it'd be preferable to come to the [possibly silken] armor-clad martial artist after a good number of evaluation sessions and say "It seems to me that it's not as bad as I thought, so if you want to take GSP and use it with Snake Style, you can" than to take the martial artist aside after a few sessions and say "hey this thing you did is feeling overpowered and broken, so would you like to reallocate stuff and drop GSP? Since I'm deciding now the GSP/MA-compatible armor thing isn't cool after all."

                          One is a mid-season upgrade. The other feels like a surprise kneecapping [unless it was so seriously bad that they recognized the problem and were thinking it also needed fixing]

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Totentanz View Post

                            Well, it ought to be, yes. But sometimes arguments on the internet get heated, or at least we perceive heat because our conversations are text only.

                            So, here's my primary concern. The Silken-Armor+GSP thing grants a lot of soak to fighting styles that already have powerful defensive charms of their own. I wouldn't really want a Snake Stylist running around with Heavy armor in my game. Especially given that there are other soak-enhancers. That's not to say that soak is the be-all, end-all. There are plenty of soak bypassers out there. I just worry about the implications of all that soak on top of the evasive options SS has to offer ( and of course that additional Essence bump to soak).

                            Part of my reluctance stems from my relative inexperience with MA in general, honestly. I've run several simulations with the various Martial Arts to get a feel for them, but I haven't run long-term games with focused Martial Artists. My long history of roleplaying in general, though, tells me to be cautious about end-runs like this. It can be a huge letdown to tell a player their build is hurting the game and needs to be changed.

                            Also, I get the impression that in many cases Ex3 stuff was written in a vacuum. The unclear wording and lack of connective rules tissue (like Counterattack rules) leads me to believe the 'loophole' in GSP applying to MA was not intentional. I could be wrong, of course.
                            Even if it was not, a Martial Artist can pick up Diamond Body Prana and get nearly as much soak at a much lower cost. Not to mention that there are a LOT of effects that specifically ignore armor soak that Diamond Body Prana is immune to, AND DBP has better prerequisites and is a prerequisite for better charms.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              So I guess my question is, does anyone know if the armor limitations on Martial Arts were placed on the styles purely for flavor, or if there were mechanical reasons for that (or if, at the least, individual martial arts styles were specifically designed with the lack of heavy armor in mind when it came to balancing the style?)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I'm looking into what Totentanz said. A cursory glance shows styles with armor limitations tend to have more defensive buffs. Styles that allow armor tend to be more offensive based.

                                It might be a case of defensive stacking like they mention.

                                I'm not convinced its out of proportion, but at least it's a place to start looking.


                                My Homebrew: Architect of the Regal Puppet Style (WIP) || Monkey Style || Radiant Halo of Incandescent Might || Pale Driver, Ruination of the Edifice of Tyranny || Sublime Percussion, Just a Whole lot of Fun || Idris, The Graceful Heart of Purpose

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X