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Glorious Solar Plate + MA

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  • #61
    I think it's probably more to keep them functional on their own.

    I just can't see the logic in objecting to people sidestepping limitations with artifacts or charms. That's what they're for.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
      I'm looking into what Totentanz said. A cursory glance shows styles with armor limitations tend to have more defensive buffs. Styles that allow armor tend to be more offensive based.

      It might be a case of defensive stacking like they mention.

      I'm not convinced its out of proportion, but at least it's a place to start looking.
      Snake Style is a good example in that regard.

      Snake Form imposes a -1/-3 penalty on attack rolls, which is pretty solid, AND adds Dexterity to soak.
      Essence Fangs and Scales Technique adds Essence to soak on top of that.

      Somebody rocking that with zero mobility penalty heavy armor is going to be a huge PITA to damage, and it's passive once it's running. And then of course Invulnerable Skin of Bronze can stack on that, and it doesn't even have commitment.

      I'm not saying it's super broken, or that it's impossible to achieve that level of defensive capability another way. However, Snake Form on its own can bring you to 10 soak with effectively +3 Defense that can't be onslaughted away. As a ST, I would be wary of granting armor that's essentially better than standard super-heavy plate on top of that.

      Does it have a fairly significant upfront investment? Yes, but in Ex3 charm effects are overall smaller, so that's pretty normal.

      Compare that to White Reaper, which allows all armor by default. Its soak-granting charm is based on halos, (meaning you have to have been fighting for a while before you can use it), and it doesn't have the attack penalty kicker.

      Snake Style grants a nice and easy defensive boost, clearly intended to make up for lighter armor. Impenetrable White Shroud in White Reaper requires you have launched multiple decisive attacks in order to be good, and its kicker is based on BGs. It is clearly intended to provide a boost to the RW stylist after a battle has gone for a while and they need a boost to keep slaughtering the army they are fighting.
      Last edited by Totentanz; 03-20-2017, 03:18 PM. Reason: Grammar

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      • #63
        Well, how about comparing something like Black Claw, that doesn't have any soak boosting charms to speak of? Snake is a pretty all round top tier style, I think most agree.

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        • #64
          The problem there prototype is that black claw is explicitly incompatible with weapons, save the one charm that lets you so long as you took it from "your attacker", and armor. So either you're wearing armor in which case you can't use Black Claw, or GSP gives you armor in which you can't use it.

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          • #65
            Or you're wearing silken robes which are being boosted with GSP? The exception that everyone with half an ounce of inclination to mechanical optimisation will be using?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
              Or you're wearing silken robes which are being boosted with GSP? The exception that everyone with half an ounce of inclination to mechanical optimisation will be using?

              I'm not 100% sure that digging yourself into a -14m -1WP -1 action hole at the start of combat while using a style that all but guarantees you won't be hit in the first place necessarily counts as "mechanical optimization".

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              • #67
                Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post


                I'm not 100% sure that digging yourself into a -14m -1WP -1 action hole at the start of combat while using a style that all but guarantees you won't be hit in the first place necessarily counts as "mechanical optimization".
                How is it a -14m "hole"? GSP's text says:
                If the Solar’s current armor
                is attuned, grafting Glorious Solar Plate onto it replaces
                the commitment cost, releasing the attuned motes.
                So, yes, in the round you activate GSP you're paying 10m 1WP, on top of the 4m you've already paid to attune to your armour, but those 4m are released and can be recovered subsequently. In terms of the character's maximum usable (ie non-committed) pools they're only 6m down on where they'd normally be for just having the armour attuned.
                I mean no offence but if one of my players fired the -14m argument at me I'd feel they were maybe being a little disingenuous. *shrug*

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                • #68
                  Alright.

                  Looking it all over I can make a few final observation.

                  - The construction of the MA trees does seem to be balanced between offering charm defenses to soak/defense and what armor they allow. It isn't very consistent though, some styles (Like Snake) upfront offering potentially huge bonuses but still allowing armor.
                  - Anything that would work with Sorcery (Invul. Skin of Bronze) lacks serious defensive capabilities in style. Most of them are context sensitive. Like Single Point where the only defensive buff it gives requires you to be outnumbered before it becomes worth the cost of activating it.
                  - Using this combo for an MA that wouldn't normally allow armor requires a 2-charm tax that you wouldn't ordinarily gain much benefit from plus the cost of an artifact, either made in game or purchased at character creation.
                  - You're waiting till Essence 3 to actually get maximum benefit from it. Some people run games that skip early essence levels, but I'm not one of them.
                  - It's not mindblowingly awesome. The bonus is costly in all forms of character currency and it's not a huge boost if you're already cheezing with Silk Armor, even less so if you're using MA that allows other armor sizes.
                  - I'm more in favour of not making changes unless I have to. I believe that (regardless of intent) GSP allows it to happen and I see no compelling reason to change that.

                  That's just for me and mine though. I have bigger things to worry about, like infinite armies of demons and OHKO.

                  Peace out. Thanks for the conversation.


                  My Homebrew: Architect of the Regal Puppet Style (WIP) || Monkey Style (obsolete) || Radiant Halo of Incanescent Might || Pale Driver, Ruination of the Edifice of Tyranny || Sublime Percussion, Just a Whole lot of Fun || Idris, The Graceful Heart of Purpose

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by NSFW View Post

                    How is it a -14m "hole"? GSP's text says:

                    So, yes, in the round you activate GSP you're paying 10m 1WP, on top of the 4m you've already paid to attune to your armour, but those 4m are released and can be recovered subsequently. In terms of the character's maximum usable (ie non-committed) pools they're only 6m down on where they'd normally be for just having the armour attuned.

                    I'm going to assume that any combat serious enough to warrant GSPing up will also be serious enough to prevent you from recovering those 4 motes, and by the time you'd regenerate them you're probably going to release commitment to GSP anyway. Now, you could say that this still only puts you in a -10m hole compared to where you'd normally be, but if we consider that since you're balls-deep in Resistance, you could've just picked Diamond-Body Prana instead for a marginally greater cost (3 prerequisite Charms that are actually useful versus two that are pretty much dead weight for someone wearing silken armor) and sidestepped the commitment issue entirely, I think counting the full 14 is entirely warranted.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
                      Well, how about comparing something like Black Claw, that doesn't have any soak boosting charms to speak of? Snake is a pretty all round top tier style, I think most agree.
                      Because when I'm trying to determine if a given rules interpretation is broken/inadvisable, it's best to find the worst case scenario. It's what my inner power game tells me to do.

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                      • #71
                        I just don't see 14m+1wp for +6/+6 as that strong. It's just withering Damage. Yeah, you're not gonna crash as often (if at all), but you can still be Decisived (and first-turn-kill-comboed), Overwhelmed, etc. And ,unless you're playing one-on-one, which I don't think the game should be built around, Initiative can be harvested from your allies or NPCs, or stolen from your missed attacks (fucking Dodge).

                        And since your charm choices are zero-sum, it means you haven't invested in damage as much as you could have, which means you won't be crashing others as much as you could be.

                        So I think it balances out.

                        Ultimately though, It'd need to be play-tested, and I have neither the time nor energy for that.


                        Jade-Screened Exalted Finding the Path
                        Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

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                        • #72
                          FWIW this whole discussion is a great example of why I hope "natural language" dies in a fire before the next release!

                          Given how powerful Solars are meant to be, it's a complete PITA trying to work out which grossly powerful charm effects or combos are intended, and which aren't. Some cases are clear, like using Surprise Anticipation Method to get permanent Keen Senses for 0 commitment, and they set a precedent that Solars are intended to be grim, but other examples, like this discussion, are very much less clear!

                          Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post


                          I'm going to assume that any combat serious enough to warrant GSPing up will also be serious enough to prevent you from recovering those 4 motes, and by the time you'd regenerate them you're probably going to release commitment to GSP anyway. Now, you could say that this still only puts you in a -10m hole compared to where you'd normally be, but if we consider that since you're balls-deep in Resistance, you could've just picked Diamond-Body Prana instead for a marginally greater cost (3 prerequisite Charms that are actually useful versus two that are pretty much dead weight for someone wearing silken armor) and sidestepped the commitment issue entirely, I think counting the full 14 is entirely warranted.
                          Bear in mind that anyone who's this deep into Resistance is almost certainly going to have Essence Gathering Temper, and the pre-reqs for GSP put them only one point of Resistance off EGT's pre-req for getting double stamina essence back. Given that EGT doesn't seem that hard to reset, for a resistance focused character, I'm thinking it's moderately likely that a GSP user might well get the chance to recharge some of those uncommitted motes, but obviously that is going to be very encounter dependent. *shrug*

                          Overall, the thing which makes me lean towards thinking that GSP isn't intended for use with (non heavy armour) MA is that, if you're going to assume that the line about increasing the worn armour's "lesser" traits to those of GSP means pick the best of the two stat lines, then light armour is a superior choice to medium armour, which feels jarring.
                          I'm thinking that when GSP's description talks about boosting lesser traits, it means "lesser" in the sense of magnitude not absolute values, (i.e. that, in terms of mobility penalties, 0 for light armour is a lesser value than -2 for heavy) & that it's a flowery, and confusing, way of saying that GSP gives ones worn armour all of the stats of heavy armour.

                          In the grand scheme, like any combination, it probably doesn't matter, so long as it doesn't make the ST's job of balancing encounters too much of a PITA. or make other combat specialised characters feel underpowered/redundant. *shrug*
                          Last edited by NSFW; 03-21-2017, 11:56 AM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by NSFW View Post
                            Overall, the thing which makes me lean towards thinking that GSP isn't intended for use with (non heavy armour) MA is that, if you're going to assume that the line about increasing the worn armour's "lesser" traits to those of GSP means pick the best of the two stat lines, then light armour is a superior choice to medium armour, which feels jarring.
                            This. Frankly, I'm less concerned about the possible abuse with MA (which the system should be able to take without exploding) and more put off by this bizarre notion that GSP always works better when slapped on top of light armor. This feels like it shuts down more possibilities than it opens up, and that's never a good thing in my book.

                            I'm thinking that when GSP's description talks about boosting lesser traits, it means "lesser" in the sense of magnitude not absolute values, (i.e. that, in terms of mobility penalties, 0 for light armour is a lesser value than -2 for heavy) & that it's a flowery, and confusing, way of saying that GSP gives ones worn armour all of the stats of heavy armour.
                            That's how I read it as well. Other interpretations didn't even cross my mind until someone pointed them out.

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                            • #74
                              It doesn't say it "boosts" lesser traits, it says it "upgrades" them. Going from 0 mobility to -2 isn't an "upgrade" in any sense of the word.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post


                                I'm going to assume that any combat serious enough to warrant GSPing up will also be serious enough to prevent you from recovering those 4 motes, and by the time you'd regenerate them you're probably going to release commitment to GSP anyway. Now, you could say that this still only puts you in a -10m hole compared to where you'd normally be, but if we consider that since you're balls-deep in Resistance, you could've just picked Diamond-Body Prana instead for a marginally greater cost (3 prerequisite Charms that are actually useful versus two that are pretty much dead weight for someone wearing silken armor) and sidestepped the commitment issue entirely, I think counting the full 14 is entirely warranted.

                                Why are you ignoring the fact that GSP Duration is indefinite? You can recover those 4 motes well before any combat occurs if you wanted.

                                Diamond-Body Prana on the other hand only being scene long will often require activating as combat starts. This is using up what could be a very valuable action.

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