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  • #31
    I will say, I do with Onyx Path had been able to purchase the rights to Exalted the way they did Trinity and Scion(as I recall). Fortunately WW doesn't seem to have any interest in doing anything with the property themselves.

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    • #32
      Next Kickstarter*: Help OPP buy the full rights to Exalted.

      I'd throw money at that.
      Hell I'd even invest....... in a few years once my loans are paid off.





      * I wish.
      Last edited by Fata-Ku; 03-16-2017, 12:58 PM.


      Jade-Screened Exalted Finding the Path
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      • #33
        Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
        I will say, I do with Onyx Path had been able to purchase the rights to Exalted the way they did Trinity and Scion(as I recall). Fortunately WW doesn't seem to have any interest in doing anything with the property themselves.
        I do too if only so that the EX3 mechanics could be licensed/ported out to other games.

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        • #34
          I suspect the cost to buy the Exalted rights is beyond what a kickstarter could reasonably raise.


          Odd_Canuck is not a topical medication or food product and is not to be taken internally or seriously.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by SpruceStripedGoose View Post
            My honest impression is that if anything exalted's development feels quite possibly more opaque and stalled than it did during the development of the core, at least then we were hearing what John and Holden were working on month to month.
            See, my honest impression is that, back when John and Holden posted about their work regularly, people 1) complained about problems that didn't actually exist because the previews only contained a small part of the mechanics, 2) complained that the mechanics didn't cater to their preferred playstyle, regardless of whether or not that playstyle actually fit Exalted's overall genre, themes and design goals, 3) complained that the Ex3 didn't just regurgitate Ex2's stale, dead-end ideas, and 4) complained that the updates weren't good enough, no matter how many updates there were or what their content was.

            It contributed absolutely nothing productive and at best disrupted the development process by distracting John and Holden, so I'm not at all surprised that Ex3 isn't getting much if any open development. The other Onyx Path project don't have to deal with that level of meaningless noise -- although I know some people complained that Epic Attributes weren't in Scion, even though they were hugely problematic in first edition, and people complained about Beast, but I don't think any of the tweaks Matt made to Beast were things that people actually asked for, because Matt actually knew what Beast needed and the people who were complaining didn't -- but it's been a recurring problem with Exalted, and I don't see what problem would be solved by putting John and Holden in a position were they have to explain themselves to people who very obviously have no interest at all in understanding how game development works, but who are equally obviously complaining because they want to be told how smart they were for spotting problems that don't actually exist. Just having to watch that is enough to piss me off -- I'll spend however much time and effort necessary to explain something to someone who genuinely wants to learn, and I have absolutely no patience for people who make a deliberate choice to remain ignorant -- so I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to actually have to deal with it first-hand.

            So... nice things, can't have, etc.


            [Ex3] Why Gods Need the Exigence - Plot hooks for Exigent characters of various gods.
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            [Ex3] The Glass Library - My Exalted Third Edition Blog (Updated 24/04/2016)

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Odd_Canuck View Post
              I suspect the cost to buy the Exalted rights is beyond what a kickstarter could reasonably raise.
              Yeah, seeing how the current setup lets WW/Paradox make money off everything that comes out with the Exalted logo on it without putting in any real effort or money on their part, I don't see them willing to part with the license easily.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Tiresias View Post
                See, my honest impression is that, back when John and Holden posted about their work regularly, people 1) complained about problems that didn't actually exist because the previews only contained a small part of the mechanics, 2) complained that the mechanics didn't cater to their preferred playstyle, regardless of whether or not that playstyle actually fit Exalted's overall genre, themes and design goals, 3) complained that the Ex3 didn't just regurgitate Ex2's stale, dead-end ideas, and 4) complained that the updates weren't good enough, no matter how many updates there were or what their content was.
                Yes, I agree with you. However, with Ex3 out, the people who hated the change in direction has left the game by now (sad, but true), or have had time to appreciate the whole product and tweak it for their needs (there are already many excellent charm/system rewrites around). I would hope for criticism and comments to be less carnivorous with the writers and devs. Also, I saw how John managed to put some unconventional charms in Miracles and not triggering an avalanche of noise and hate by simply explaining the intent of those charms and adding the keyword that means: you don't have to use these if you don't want to (which in fact has always been an unwritten rule).

                I think the re-opening of the communication channel could bring the same kind of nonsense as before... but there's a little hope that it could be used in a positive way again (remember the ink monkeys time?). Energized and creative discussion can also inspire the team. We know they are excited to share all the stuff they're working on. Can't we at least try?

                Just my personal thoughts.


                Join the Strife

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by SpruceStripedGoose View Post

                  I dont think anyone is trying to say you are unaware of the problems, you clearly recognised them years ago and have been reiterating that you still recongnize them every other month for three years now it seems. But people are still asking about it because recognizing problems is not the same as solving problems and it really doesn't feel like they have been solved in all these years since you first commented on them.

                  Maybe this round of behind the scenes changes will be the one to fix things, but we have heard things were going to change before and nothing really came of it. My honest impression is that if anything exalted's development feels quite possibly more opaque and stalled than it did during the development of the core, at least then we were hearing what John and Holden were working on month to month.
                  I guess I wasn't clear because I was trying to respond to three different posters (and related followups). The nature of how open development is is the call made by the development team, and while I have encouraged developers to post updates and Open Dev blogs, it's not a mandate to the dev teams. Some fans really want that sort of dev interaction, others really don't, I think it's a good practice for devs, and some devs disagree. But the amount of open devving a team does has never been a problem to be solved, and if I've referenced it "for years" it has been those times I did get the Exalted devs to agree to communicate more with you all, only to have circumstances push that back down. Some of those circumstances were the tumults in their personal lives, some were negative interactions on social media or professionally. Regardless of the reasons, they took the course each time that they felt best enabled them to keep working on Exalted.

                  So will our new plan involve more open development? I very much hope so, but again, the dev teams we have need to use the Open Dev Process like any other tool: at their comfort level. Far more significantly, we want to have a release schedule that delivers much more EX3 material to all of you than we have been delivering (without diminishing the quality, for those of you were concerned about that, as if we'd ever go that route).

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                  • #39
                    Thanks for taking the time, RichT. It is appreciated.

                    Sending positive vibes your way and that of the Devs.


                    Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RichT View Post

                      I guess I wasn't clear because I was trying to respond to three different posters (and related followups). The nature of how open development is is the call made by the development team, and while I have encouraged developers to post updates and Open Dev blogs, it's not a mandate to the dev teams. Some fans really want that sort of dev interaction, others really don't, I think it's a good practice for devs, and some devs disagree. But the amount of open devving a team does has never been a problem to be solved, and if I've referenced it "for years" it has been those times I did get the Exalted devs to agree to communicate more with you all, only to have circumstances push that back down. Some of those circumstances were the tumults in their personal lives, some were negative interactions on social media or professionally. Regardless of the reasons, they took the course each time that they felt best enabled them to keep working on Exalted.

                      So will our new plan involve more open development? I very much hope so, but again, the dev teams we have need to use the Open Dev Process like any other tool: at their comfort level. Far more significantly, we want to have a release schedule that delivers much more EX3 material to all of you than we have been delivering (without diminishing the quality, for those of you were concerned about that, as if we'd ever go that route).
                      This is very much my problem, I know you get it Rich, I think we are very much on the same wavelength of what WE would do to make things better. But so long as the absolute discretion lies with the freelance devs and not you the owner of Onyxpath I just can't be optomistic that the changes and opportunities you are providing institutionally will be embraced.

                      I dont like dealing with patrons who have outstanding fines at my workplace, I find that is where most of my daily confrontation with a patron will occur, but I still do it because I know it needs to be done and because I have a manager whose job it us to make sure I am working in such a way that best serves the institution.

                      Onyx Path is a great publisher, I love what you are creating, but I feel like every time I would go to praise something you are doing company wide I have to add an asterisk of "*except exalted". It honestly feels like they are the petulant child of the Onyx Path who gets away with all the bad behavior.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Tiresias View Post

                        See, my honest impression is that, back when John and Holden posted about their work regularly, people 1) complained about problems that didn't actually exist because the previews only contained a small part of the mechanics, 2) complained that the mechanics didn't cater to their preferred playstyle, regardless of whether or not that playstyle actually fit Exalted's overall genre, themes and design goals, 3) complained that the Ex3 didn't just regurgitate Ex2's stale, dead-end ideas, and 4) complained that the updates weren't good enough, no matter how many updates there were or what their content was.

                        It contributed absolutely nothing productive and at best disrupted the development process by distracting John and Holden, so I'm not at all surprised that Ex3 isn't getting much if any open development. The other Onyx Path project don't have to deal with that level of meaningless noise -- although I know some people complained that Epic Attributes weren't in Scion, even though they were hugely problematic in first edition, and people complained about Beast, but I don't think any of the tweaks Matt made to Beast were things that people actually asked for, because Matt actually knew what Beast needed and the people who were complaining didn't -- but it's been a recurring problem with Exalted, and I don't see what problem would be solved by putting John and Holden in a position were they have to explain themselves to people who very obviously have no interest at all in understanding how game development works, but who are equally obviously complaining because they want to be told how smart they were for spotting problems that don't actually exist. Just having to watch that is enough to piss me off -- I'll spend however much time and effort necessary to explain something to someone who genuinely wants to learn, and I have absolutely no patience for people who make a deliberate choice to remain ignorant -- so I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to actually have to deal with it first-hand.

                        So... nice things, can't have, etc.
                        I still don't buy that this is a problem with Exalted fans and not the development process. Quite a lot of criticism of Ex3 previewed material was correct, after all. When it was accepted by the developers it improved the product directly, such as turning Martial Arts XP into Solar XP, and when criticism was ignored the game often suffered for it. Other Onyx Path games, and other RPGs I've kickstarted, have a more transparent development process with frequent, robust updates and open playtesting. They don't receive complaints like Exalted does even when it's the same fans involved.

                        Citing the Beast revisions as successful in addressing what that mess needed for fixes means we definitely have incompatible tastes in game design, however! I care far less about the auteur expressing their uncompromised vision than I do getting an RPG that's usable at my table. It's a nightmare to ST a Ex3 game even when you do adhere to the promised playstyle, a criticism that comes up again and again from the very people devoted enough to generate entire PDF books full of mechanical fixes for the rest of the fandom. It's lovely that Exalted fans are devoted enough to do all this effort for the game, but it's 2017 and we know how to channel that force into the game design before the book even sees print.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by RichT View Post
                          So will our new plan involve more open development? I very much hope so, but again, the dev teams we have need to use the Open Dev Process like any other tool: at their comfort level. Far more significantly, we want to have a release schedule that delivers much more EX3 material to all of you than we have been delivering (without diminishing the quality, for those of you were concerned about that, as if we'd ever go that route).
                          Thanks for the heads-up Rich.

                          One thing I always liked about White Wolf back in the day (as opposed to many other RPG companies) was that many of the authors, developers and artists were a part of the general community. They would post on the forums and share their thoughts and their work. You could have a chat with them, ask them about what they were thinking when they made something, and even offer suggestions that (once in a great while) would see print. Being able to interact with those authors made White Wolf feel less like a fancy restaurant where you just order your food and they bring it to you, and instead more like a neighborhood diner you've been going to for years, where you're on a first name basis with the chef and the waitress and you can chat with them about anything while they get you your food.

                          Exalted especially had a history of many of the authors and artists engaging with the community, and it tended to make White Wolf/OPP feel like less of a game company and more like a little piece of your life. The authors and artists weren't just nameless people, but rather were acquaintances or even friends and you'd get happy for them when good things would happen to them. Other RPG companies have started doing that more and more, with authors being willing to engage directly with the customers, but White Wolf was one of the first RPG companies I found willing to do that.

                          So the lack of open development and the way that the Exalted dev's don't really interact with the community much these days does feels a bit unusual and a bit depressing in comparison. I'm grateful that you're willing to respond to people on the forums, and of course I'm grateful to Vance, Stephen and all of the other freelancers who come on here to post about their ideas and thoughts on the game.

                          But I can see how some long-time Exalted and OPP/White Wolf fans can be left feeling like they've been left struggling in the dark, at least when compared to other RPG companies with a more open development process, or to the old days of 1st and 2nd edition where it felt like there was a lot more communication between authors and the community, or even to other OPP gamelines that have a more open relationship between the developer and the audience.
                          Last edited by AnubisXy; 03-16-2017, 03:29 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Shinjo View Post

                            It's a nightmare to ST a Ex3 game even when you do adhere to the promised playstyle, a criticism that comes up again and again from the very people devoted enough to generate entire PDF books full of mechanical fixes for the rest of the fandom.
                            I know it's a bit off topic, but would you mind elaborating on this? I haven't actually been able to to ST an Ex3 game yet.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by SpruceStripedGoose View Post

                              This is very much my problem, I know you get it Rich, I think we are very much on the same wavelength of what WE would do to make things better. But so long as the absolute discretion lies with the freelance devs and not you the owner of Onyxpath I just can't be optomistic that the changes and opportunities you are providing institutionally will be embraced.

                              I dont like dealing with patrons who have outstanding fines at my workplace, I find that is where most of my daily confrontation with a patron will occur, but I still do it because I know it needs to be done and because I have a manager whose job it us to make sure I am working in such a way that best serves the institution.

                              Onyx Path is a great publisher, I love what you are creating, but I feel like every time I would go to praise something you are doing company wide I have to add an asterisk of "*except exalted". It honestly feels like they are the petulant child of the Onyx Path who gets away with all the bad behavior.
                              I don't think we're ever going to come to an agreement on this. My sense of your position is that you think I should demand Open Dev from every development team, and if they don't like it, too bad. The business demands it.

                              Except, it doesn't. There is not one bit of evidence that proves that a game company that always puts out updates and has open development of some kind is more successful than one that doesn't. Anecdotally? Maybe. There's an equally valid line of thinking that says that throwing a complete new thing at fans like a surprise hand grenade gets folks even more excited and talking about the projects than the slow progress of showing each stage of creation.

                              Onyx Path does it the way we do because, right now, I like how we are doing it. I like hearing from all of you and giving you a chance to contribute thoughts and ideas and that creativity that is so much a hallmark of our hobby. And I want Onyx to be a place where creators feel like they can create without feeling like they are being attacked by their audience, so that is why we give devs the leeway to engage with you all in the ways they feel they can.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                                Thanks for the heads-up Rich.

                                One thing I always liked about White Wolf back in the day (as opposed to many other RPG companies) was that many of the authors, developers and artists were a part of the general community. They would post on the forums and share their thoughts and their work. You could have a chat with them, ask them about what they were thinking when they made something, and even offer suggestions that (once in a great while) would see print. Being able to interact with those authors made White Wolf feel less like a fancy restaurant where you just order your food and they bring it to you, and instead more like a neighborhood diner you've been going to for years, where you're on a first name basis with the chef and the waitress and you can chat with them about anything while they get you your food.

                                Exalted especially had a history of many of the authors and artists engaging with the community, and it tended to make White Wolf/OPP feel like less of a game company and more like a little piece of your life. The authors and artists weren't just nameless people, but rather were acquaintances or even friends and you'd get happy for them when good things would happen to them. Other RPG companies have started doing that more and more, with authors being willing to engage directly with the customers, but White Wolf was one of the first RPG companies I found willing to do that.

                                So the lack of open development and the way that the Exalted dev's don't really interact with the community much these days does feels a bit unusual and a bit depressing in comparison. I'm grateful that you're willing to respond to people on the forums, and of course I'm grateful to Vance, Stephen and all of the other freelancers who come on here to post about their ideas and thoughts on the game.

                                But I can see how some long-time Exalted and OPP/White Wolf fans can be left feeling like they've been left struggling in the dark, at least when compared to other RPG companies with a more open development process, or to the old days of 1st and 2nd edition where it felt like there was a lot more communication between authors and the community, or even to other OPP gamelines that have a more open relationship between the developer and the audience.
                                So how does your memory of the old Exalted forums relate to the fact that both previous developers during the WW era actually quit the forums? Essentially decided that the abuse was not worth it? I'm not trying to attack you, or your memories of those times, but to suggest that there are other narratives that exist suggesting that not everyone was happy at your diner.

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