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  • #46
    Originally posted by RichT View Post
    So how does your memory of the old Exalted forums relate to the fact that both previous developers during the WW era actually quit the forums? Essentially decided that the abuse was not worth it? I'm not trying to attack you, or your memories of those times, but to suggest that there are other narratives that exist suggesting that not everyone was happy at your diner.
    Oh for sure, Chambers wasn't around much at all during 2nd edition. But many of the other authors spent quite a bit of time on the forums and would provide heads up on what was going on, what sort of things they were working on, giving insight into what they had worked on, and Grabowski was generally still willing to touch base with fans through third parties fairly often during 1st edition, even after he quit coming to the forums.

    *EDIT*

    Originally posted by RichT View Post
    Except, it doesn't. There is not one bit of evidence that proves that a game company that always puts out updates and has open development of some kind is more successful than one that doesn't. Anecdotally? Maybe. There's an equally valid line of thinking that says that throwing a complete new thing at fans like a surprise hand grenade gets folks even more excited and talking about the projects than the slow progress of showing each stage of creation.
    This is a bit of a worry for me because I'm not sure is that's necessarily the case with the roleplaying community as much as it used to be. I think the RPG community has been changing over the last several years. There are a lot of options out there for playing a game and people tend not be as fanatical about following a single company as they used to. With more books in PDF format rather than taking up room on a shelf, you have a bit less of a physical connection to a particular company. Plus, people's attention spans (in general) have been getting a bit shorter than they used to. Certainly there are hardcore fans who will be happy to wait for a year or two in silence so they can tear into their new book when it comes out.

    But there will be plenty of other people whose attention wanders. If there's no news from Exalted, they'll go over and try out other RPG lines and may end up just forgetting about Exalted altogether. Then a new Exalted book gets published and they go, "Oh yeah, that game. Meh."

    I'm just worried that silence and lack of open development and less of interaction with the fans will end up making some people move on to greener pastures. And as someone who likes Exalted and wants to see it be as successful as possible, this does seem like a potential issue to me.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 03-16-2017, 03:47 PM.

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    • #47
      Call me crazy but maybe juuuuuuuuuuuuust maybe this is why we shouldn't have people breaking NDAs....twice...and leaking things to scummy places like 4chan.


      IE. Yeah I really don't have any problem laying the blame on this squarely on the fanbase.
      Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 03-16-2017, 03:52 PM.


      “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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      • #48
        "Hand grenade of excitement" is an OK idea, but if it applies anywhere, seems like it would be weaker for Exalted than most anywhere with like, three editions and where by 3e most of the time people just want to know that things they are already familiar with are being handled well and that it's worth sticking with Exalted because what they already love will work this time.

        Not that I'm demanding open development or dev interaction at all here! Fine whatever way they want to do it with their limited time (on top of the day job, working on Exalted, having a social life), and maybe they just find chatting on forums eats into time they can spend more efficiently, and they find talking to occasionally critical strangers online about their own personal work is just not their personality strength. Provided no depressing, rude, lame excuses like "The Onyx Path Forumites are weird, exhausting, toxic people to deal with" are proffered up.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by RichT View Post

          I don't think we're ever going to come to an agreement on this. My sense of your position is that you think I should demand Open Dev from every development team, and if they don't like it, too bad. The business demands it.

          Except, it doesn't. There is not one bit of evidence that proves that a game company that always puts out updates and has open development of some kind is more successful than one that doesn't. Anecdotally? Maybe. There's an equally valid line of thinking that says that throwing a complete new thing at fans like a surprise hand grenade gets folks even more excited and talking about the projects than the slow progress of showing each stage of creation.

          Onyx Path does it the way we do because, right now, I like how we are doing it. I like hearing from all of you and giving you a chance to contribute thoughts and ideas and that creativity that is so much a hallmark of our hobby. And I want Onyx to be a place where creators feel like they can create without feeling like they are being attacked by their audience, so that is why we give devs the leeway to engage with you all in the ways they feel they can.

          Do you feel any responsibility to steer them in a different direction though as their...mentor isnt the right word...supervisor? I get the impression that you like open development and would like more of it if possible no? If you say "hey guys you know this could engender a lot more positivity and optimism, and nobody else at OP is having major issues doing it", and they just say "NOPE", is that the end of it even if it goes against what you think is a better course.

          I just see how well it's working for everyone else, and a distinct lack of these supposed bogeyman Exalted fans. Even right now the only reason I am bugging you is that we haven't seen more than glimpse of something new from exalted for what 9 months, what else is there to talk about? You personally have released a handful of art from the quickstart which is nice, but is there literally no other sharing that could be happening?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by SpruceStripedGoose View Post
            I just see how well it's working for everyone else, and a distinct lack of these supposed bogeyman Exalted fans. Even right now the only reason I am bugging you is that we haven't seen more than glimpse of something new from exalted for what 9 months, what else is there to talk about? You personally have released a handful of art from the quickstart which is nice, but is there literally no other sharing that could be happening?
            I was not here for the kickstarter and the like, but came to Exalted when the pdf went out to the public. It did not take me very long to find the legions of posts by the 'bogeyman' Exalted fans. It is still not very hard to find them if you use google. People were very unpleasant.

            You probably don't see a lot of them here anymore because they don't come here anymore, or in many cases, they were banned. That was not a painless process, either.

            It is really not surprising to me that they don't love talking to us as a consequence of that behavior.

            With an understanding that I am not saying this to attack you, but to make a point in earnest, this kind of behavior is definitely another part in it. Demanding it and demanding they be forced to comply when Rich has already just discussed the issue of comfort as an important one seems like a failure to process the information you're being given about what has occurred, developer comfort levels and personal tragedies. It's misguided and not very respectful of the people you'd supposedly like to engage with. Like, consider what you said here:

            Originally posted by SpruceStripedGoose View Post
            If you say "hey guys you know this could engender a lot more positivity and optimism, and nobody else at OP is having major issues doing it", and they just say "NOPE", is that the end of it even if it goes against what you think is a better course.
            I strongly encourage you to re-read what Rich has been saying if you think this is what has happened, as it seems like a gross mischaracterization.
            Last edited by Leetsepeak; 03-16-2017, 04:41 PM.


            Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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            • #51
              I am open and willing to listen to what new material is going to be presented and how it is going to be presented.

              Rich has specified on multiple occasions that the Open Development process is a choice given to developers to engage in if it makes the creative process more successful. I do not understand why he has to continue to repeat himself over and over again on this very same subject. Its a logical and clear response to why Exalted has not been as Open as say Scion or Changeling the Lost 2ED.

              The future is coming, and with it more Exalted books. We are so very quick to lay blame on the development process, yet ignore the actions the fan community engaged in to sabotage that development process. TyrannicalRabbit was correct. Fans with ill intentions actively broke NDA and sabotaged the play testing process, making it so the developers completely closed their walls because they had lost all trust and confidence that Exalted play-testers wouldn't leak information in an attempt to undermine the game's mechanical direction. It was awful and cruel and spiteful.

              Honestly I do not know why the community is not screaming for the heads of those people...


              "May you live in interesting times"

              Storyteller of The Hakura Chronicle

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Keichiokami View Post
                Honestly I do not know why the community is not screaming for the heads of those people...
                Yeah... its weird. I don't know why it was everyone elso who got to pay for the consequences. If the guy wanted to strike the gameline, well... he did, and then everyone else allowed him to "run away". Do we know if the DB book is or will be playtested? If not, well again, the perpetrator reached his goal and the game was wounded I guess.



                Join the Strife

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by SpruceStripedGoose View Post


                  Do you feel any responsibility to steer them in a different direction though as their...mentor isnt the right word...supervisor? I get the impression that you like open development and would like more of it if possible no? If you say "hey guys you know this could engender a lot more positivity and optimism, and nobody else at OP is having major issues doing it", and they just say "NOPE", is that the end of it even if it goes against what you think is a better course.

                  I just see how well it's working for everyone else, and a distinct lack of these supposed bogeyman Exalted fans. Even right now the only reason I am bugging you is that we haven't seen more than glimpse of something new from exalted for what 9 months, what else is there to talk about? You personally have released a handful of art from the quickstart which is nice, but is there literally no other sharing that could be happening?
                  See, right there. You're debating the "bogeymen fans". As if you have the right to decide whether the devs' reasons for disengaging are valid, and you've decided they aren't. The thing is this: you don't get to make that call. I don't get to make that call. Only the devs do.

                  Let me put it another way, and this has to be my last word about this with you, I think. Some people get energized creatively by interacting with people. In the past, these creators would be labelled Extroverts, but I understand if that's too simple a definition these days. Some creators are drained, simply unable to create, by interacting with the community. And that's not even negative interaction, it can be positive but still exhausting. These would be your classic Introverts. (And then there are creators like myself and Eddy Webb who actually are introverts, but who shift to extroverted behavior when the situation calls for it. But let's stick with the dual system for now).

                  You can't force an introverted creator to be extroverted for any extended period and expect that they can then turn around and create excellent work. They are exhausted creatively. Consider that most developers were/are writers, and that most writers are writers exactly because writing gave them a way to relate to the world by means of pretty much a solo experience. Frankly, it's a wonder that we have as much sharing and open development as we have.

                  End of the day, what I need from our creators is awesome work. And I need that, by and large, after their regular jobs are done for the day and on weekends. If they feel unable to deliver that awesome work because of also having to deal with online interaction, then I'm going to support their shifting things so they can do the awesome work again.

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                  • #54
                    It feels like, from a fan's perspective, that some feel they have lost trust with the Dev team.

                    Promises of changes that don't seem to have come to fruition. Discussions of deadlines that have not been met. Discussions of thematics or mechanics that don't seem to have had impact.

                    It's enough to jade even the most avid fan. Hell, there are plenty of vocal community members who can be quoted as saying as such. Some of them don't even come around anymore.

                    Such that, when anyone moves to the fore to offer platitude it is met with a glance askance. A dot dot dot. A 'yeah, and?'. It's hard to take these kinds of things seriously, especially since it's a road we have been down before and it certainly seems as though nothing has changed.

                    And if you feel that way?

                    Great.

                    That is precisely how the Devs feel. They have said as much. Themselves, freelance workers who are friends who come in to test the waters. Communicated via announcements and forum participation by their director.

                    They have articulated that the style of criticism rather than the nature of criticism itself is what enacts the emotional toll. They have said again and again that when they try to broach the topic of change they are met with a glance askance. A dot dot dot. A 'yeah, and?'.


                    From personal experience. The core was officially released and the joy and celebration of that fact was directly countered with, "Don't celebrate, write more." As if the backers (and those who acquired it less legitimately) who had a prerelease copy of the core were the only audience. As if it wasn't the first time someone was experiencing this new edition. That chance of jubilation was absent here. It was taken from them.

                    Some time later after a lot of complaining that the official release of the core didn't count as new content, they posted a jubilant and excited announcement of dropping more content was automatically met with derision. The [i]tone[/] of the announcement didn't meet some people's expectations and they wielded it like a justicar's blade against content they hadn't even read to declare it unworthy.

                    Even now, a suggestion of positive change has been met with negative speculation and criticism.

                    Would I like open development? Hells yeah. Is it right for this product? It might be, given the mechanical complexity of it. Is it right for the dev team? Rich has said he's not convinced it is. Is it right for this community? Well. Someone already meantioned 'nice things' and I for one am not the least bit surprised or perplexed.

                    If trust has been lost, its on both sides. And that needs to be repaired. That repair does not occur while we all still engage in the same activities known to have caused the rift in the first place. It means we all (dev and community alike) take a step back, take stock, and move towards change without expectation. And it is a change I'd really like to see.


                    My Homebrew: Architect of the Regal Puppet Style (WIP) || Monkey Style || Radiant Halo of Incandescent Might || Pale Driver, Ruination of the Edifice of Tyranny || Sublime Percussion, Just a Whole lot of Fun || Idris, The Graceful Heart of Purpose

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                    • #55
                      It's fine to cite toxic behavior as the breakdown point between devs and the fans, but clearly the devs contributed to that dynamic quite a bit. By self admission they have been oftentimes rude, dismissive and even downright mean... to the point where people have even gone so far as to nonsensically suggested a PR rep (as if the budget could ever support even free coffee during work, much less a full time rep). And, see, that mean behavior isn't itself even unreasonable. It's stressful, big time. Nobody is paying the devs to be nice full time and RPGs aren't exactly a gold mine. So we can't really hold that against them.

                      BUUUT that said it makes the observation 'well they don't speak anymore because the environment is toxic' somewhat less satisfying defense for the fanbase.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
                        Call me crazy but maybe juuuuuuuuuuuuust maybe this is why we shouldn't have people breaking NDAs....twice...and leaking things to scummy places like 4chan.

                        IE. Yeah I really don't have any problem laying the blame on this squarely on the fanbase.
                        You know that the first leak was a large exception right? It was leaked by a person who literally believed that holden and morke were the worst thing to happen to the gameline. No exaggeration whatsoever, they completely believed they were the worst thing to ever happen to the books and everything from Glories onward was the downfall of Exalted.

                        The person who leaked it joined the playtests with the specific result to leak it since day one and leaked it the very instant all the Solar charm packages were complete in an attempt to spite the current developers for 'ruining the gameline'.

                        No NDA in the world could've stopped someone who had no respect for it in the first place and with full intents to leak the book.
                        Last edited by Sandact6; 03-16-2017, 05:23 PM.


                        Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
                        Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post

                          You know that the first leak was a large exception right? It was leaked by a person who literally believed that holden and morke were the worst thing to happen to the gameline. No exaggeration whatsoever, they completely believed they were the worst thing to ever happen to the books and everything from Glories onward was the downfall of Exalted.

                          The person who leaked it joined the playtests with the specific result to leak it since day one and leaked it the very instant all the Solar charm packages were complete in an attempt to spite the current developers for 'ruining the gameline'.

                          No NDA in the world could've stopped someone who had no respect for it in the first place and with full intents to leak the book.

                          What does that have to do the price of tea of china?

                          The person had ill intent and violated NDA. A legal document for which there should be severe legal and in this specific case, social consequences. In a world where it is deemed acceptable to publicly humiliate and torture a writer for disliking star wars, I have heard little to no recrimination for this person's actions. No one has even *named* them. We need to stop making excuses for shitty people's shitty behavior and hold them accountable.


                          "May you live in interesting times"

                          Storyteller of The Hakura Chronicle

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Elkovash View Post

                            It's enough to jade even the most avid fan. Hell, there are plenty of vocal community members who can be quoted as saying as such. Some of them don't even come around anymore.
                            Hehe...jade. I get it.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post

                              You know that the first leak was a large exception right? It was leaked by a person who literally believed that holden and morke were the worst thing to happen to the gameline. No exaggeration whatsoever, they completely believed they were the worst thing to ever happen to the books and everything from Glories onward was the downfall of Exalted.

                              The person who leaked it joined the playtests with the specific result to leak it since day one and leaked it the very instant all the Solar charm packages were complete in an attempt to spite the current developers for 'ruining the gameline'.

                              No NDA in the world could've stopped someone who had no respect for it in the first place and with full intents to leak the book.
                              You're not making a strong case to have any playtesting, ever

                              Was the person responsible ever held accountable? I mean, if it's that openly known who it was, breaking the NDA should have bitten him, no?


                              I thank the Devs for the great game of Exalted!

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by RichT View Post

                                See, right there. You're debating the "bogeymen fans". As if you have the right to decide whether the devs' reasons for disengaging are valid, and you've decided they aren't. The thing is this: you don't get to make that call. I don't get to make that call. Only the devs do.

                                Let me put it another way, and this has to be my last word about this with you, I think. Some people get energized creatively by interacting with people. In the past, these creators would be labelled Extroverts, but I understand if that's too simple a definition these days. Some creators are drained, simply unable to create, by interacting with the community. And that's not even negative interaction, it can be positive but still exhausting. These would be your classic Introverts. (And then there are creators like myself and Eddy Webb who actually are introverts, but who shift to extroverted behavior when the situation calls for it. But let's stick with the dual system for now).

                                You can't force an introverted creator to be extroverted for any extended period and expect that they can then turn around and create excellent work. They are exhausted creatively. Consider that most developers were/are writers, and that most writers are writers exactly because writing gave them a way to relate to the world by means of pretty much a solo experience. Frankly, it's a wonder that we have as much sharing and open development as we have.

                                End of the day, what I need from our creators is awesome work. And I need that, by and large, after their regular jobs are done for the day and on weekends. If they feel unable to deliver that awesome work because of also having to deal with online interaction, then I'm going to support their shifting things so they can do the awesome work again.
                                I can understand this and definitely agree. I do wish we could get some more in the way of previews or spoilers or whatever, even if it doesn't involve the developers personally presenting it here. For all the bad things that happened out of the leaks it really did ease my mind about the whole thing, make me excited for the game to actually come out, and make me feel like a lot of work was actually being done. I really wish that could have taken the form of like "Hey guys, it's been another three weeks, for this preview we've decided to do something a bit different and show off a new antagonist!" or something.

                                Just hearing about evocations made a difference in my games of second edition the very next week because I was so pumped up for them I made a hack for them myself because we were all so enthusiastic about it. I'd love it if we could see like "Here's just one evocation from a new artifact in Arms, try to guess what it's theme is!" or "Here's a Dragonblooded charm that we've got hammered out, showing how different aspects can use different elements better now.". It wouldn't have to be much, or very often, but it would change the conversation around my gaming table from joking about waiting until 2018 for Arms of the Chosen, to talking about the latest thing that was shown.

                                Right now, even though intellectually I'm fairly sure work hasn't completely stalled, it does feel that way. I feel like I did when Perpetual Entertainment was developing Star Trek Online, which sucks.

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