Buying slaves

[Exthalion]

Why is it so important to leave it to chance? Its likely most of them have at least a minor tie to freedom. That is an easy opening for Solar charms and an Instill action to get the minor tie you want. Then you strengthen it into major with more sophistry and illusion.

[Abakus]

You have several good points in that post. Reread the intimacy section again and your right on the minor/major/defining does not equal intensity.

I disagree that an emancipation would not create major ties in a significant % of the slaves, but that might be a minority compared to a majority. Say 15-35% of a group gains a major tie, 10% or less dont gain any tie, a few people might gain a defining tie and the rest ends up with a minor tie.



Regardless of a major or minor tie, by the virtue that a majority will gain a tie makes the plan doable still.

As raising that tie into a major one should be simple enough with some forethought. And then its a just a matter of holding a rousing speech to recruit those willing.

Making the "buy slaves in large numbers -> emancipate them -> careful social influence -> recruit soldiers" plan quite workable.

I would agree with the others that there's going to be a significant amount of "breakage." I'm not sure how many of the slaves will have a major tie--probably quite a few. Most of them would be willing to go quite out of their way to help you, at least if you ONLY bought preexisting slaves.

However, many of the people with major intimacies toward you (possibly most, maybe even a vast majority) will still not follow you. How many of them will have ties to family far away? How many will have defining or major principles that they serve no new master? Some won't choose to use willpower, but many will. (The exact numbers probably depend on the culture of slavery they were in--generational chattel slaves of the American model had literally nothing for them in terms of history, while a guy who got enslaved in a bandit attack 5 years ago will want to go find his kids.)

The ones who get a defining intimacy will probably follow you to the ends of Creation. But a large portion of those with major intimacies will have their own plans. Spending willpower to resist the honeyed words of an Exalt is something anyone can do, and if "join my army!" isn't something many people will use that rule for, I don't know what is.

[Volivat]

I would agree with the others that there's going to be a significant amount of "breakage." I'm not sure how many of the slaves will have a major tie--probably quite a few. Most of them would be willing to go quite out of their way to help you, at least if you ONLY bought preexisting slaves.

However, many of the people with major intimacies toward you (possibly most, maybe even a vast majority) will still not follow you. How many of them will have ties to family far away? How many will have defining or major principles that they serve no new master? Some won't choose to use willpower, but many will. (The exact numbers probably depend on the culture of slavery they were in--generational chattel slaves of the American model had literally nothing for them in terms of history, while a guy who got enslaved in a bandit attack 5 years ago will want to go find his kids.)

The ones who get a defining intimacy will probably follow you to the ends of Creation. But a large portion of those with major intimacies will have their own plans. Spending willpower to resist the honeyed words of an Exalt is something anyone can do, and if "join my army!" isn't something many people will use that rule for, I don't know what is.

There will be a decent amount that will manage to resist the persuasion, but they will need two major or higher intimacies that can be used to resist that persuasion.

The family intimacy or similar obvious intimacy that pulls them away from a job as a soldier will likely be used in boosting their resolve. When that is beaten they enter a decision point where they need to find another major intimacy to be able to spend willpower to resist.

Again this is a job as a soldier, not a new position as a slave.

Weakening the family tie they most likely have will also severely reduce their ability to resist the persuasion attempt.

[Abakus]

There will be a decent amount that will manage to resist the persuasion, but they will need two major or higher intimacies that can be used to resist that persuasion.

The family intimacy or similar obvious intimacy that pulls them away from a job as a soldier will likely be used in boosting their resolve. When that is beaten they enter a decision point where they need to find another major intimacy to be able to spend willpower to resist.

Again this is a job as a soldier, not a new position as a slave.

Weakening the family tie they most likely have will also severely reduce their ability to resist the persuasion attempt.

I'm unclear where in this plan you want to weaken their ties to their family? That might cause a lot of them to just up and leave, and I honestly don't see how you could leverage their loyalty to you as an appropriate intimacy for that roll. Trying to do so would likely make a lot of them just go, realizing that you're trying to go all cult leader on them.

And unless you're offering them quite a few benefits, which is doesn't sound like you are since you're trying to gain this through popularity rather than bribery, they may not make too much of a distinction between having a master who can kill them for deciding to leave, and one who will simply put them back to work on the farms, unless you're planning to strike out at someone they really don't like as a group.

Put yourself in their shoes. Not your exalt, YOU. Someone rescues you from horrific conditions, which is GREAT, but then tries to recruit you into an army based on some religious convictions. Even if that person is amazingly convincing, and got me to think that there should be an army, hell, I have people I care about, a life I want to lead. Do you have so few reasons to live you'd simply sign up?

[Abakus]

I just looked back at unacceptable influence rules. Any of the slaves who had a defining principle along the lines of "I will always be my own master" or "I will never serve another man again" can immediately tell you to shove it. Family ties might or might not also block them, depending on where they come from (since you'll be importing, it's more likely they'll be able to call upon that sort of intimacy if they think joining you means they'll never see their homes again). And most attempts to weaken things like family ties are going to be Unacceptable based off of using their loyalty to you.

[Volivat]

Joe Slave has been a slave for the last 6 years. His spirit was thoroughly broken in the slave breaking camps of the guild right after being sold to them by some raiding tribe six year ago. He have worked in a mine the last three years and is malnourished. He is several thousand miles from where his tribe was located before it was raided and those unfit for slavery was killed/or he has no clue if his family is even alive after these 6 years.

He is brought out to a desert camp deep in the desert to be sold again. He is a branded slave, does not really know where he is in the world anymore.

A week later he is assembled before his new master. He talks about how important freedom is and how he will make sure we receive care and receive plenty of food and drink to regain our strength. He also granted me my freedom.

Lastly he offered anyone who wanted the chance to become a soldier for a period of 10 years with pay as free men with a pension after that period. He said he would train us to be as skilled as his honor guard that demonstrated their skills in front of us. He said that would ensure we would never be in risk of being enslaved again. That we would know how to defend ourselves. We would also have highly sought after skills that would secure an income for most of our lives.

Joe Slave could take that offer or he could say:

No thank you good sir, I'm gonna cross that desert, figure out where I am, walk back the thousands of miles to where my family might still be if I am lucky. I hope no one will attack me or enslave me again on my way back. It's not like anyone will believe me if I say I have been freed far away from the ex master that freed me. Hopefully I won't starve to death on my way, I don't have any money. Hopefully I won't run afoul of predators that will eat me.

I personally would consider that offer a long time before making a decision to try my luck on getting back to my family/home.

It's not like I can't do that after a 10 year period.

[nalak42]

But that's one who's been imported and thoroughly broken. Others might very well decide to go with it because they do think they know or just because if you get enough together there's a lot more security than going solo.

Also 10 years is not a short time period. I mean even your example the guy's already lost 6 years and your asking for another 10? Where the incentive is that you get trained to fight and probably die for someone else, but you know it's only for what an 1/8 of your life assuming you don't get killed first.

[Morangias]

See, that "cross the desert" thing... people are pretty decent at noticing when the choice they're being offered is obviously bull, and being given a choice between serving you or most likely dying trying to get home is an obvious bullshit non-choice. Personally, I'd expect a lot of people to take you up on that offer only to bail the moment they see their chances of going home improving.

[Odd_Canuck]

See, that "cross the desert" thing... people are pretty decent at noticing when the choice they're being offered is obviously bull, and being given a choice between serving you or most likely dying trying to get home is an obvious bullshit non-choice. Personally, I'd expect a lot of people to take you up on that offer only to bail the moment they see their chances of going home improving.

"Congratulations former slaves, you're now free! Now your first free choice is to stay here and die horribly, leave here and die horribly, or sign up to serve in my army which will soon be marching forth to attack other nations, during which you may possibly die violently. In the meantime, you will endure grueling training and vast make-work projects to keep you busy."

Starts to feel a lot like slavery where you feed the slaves a bit better.

Which then ties into the whole "yeah, they're just going to kill their overseers and leave when they can".

[Morangias]

"Congratulations former slaves, you're now free! Now your first free choice is to stay here and die horribly, leave here and die horribly, or sign up to serve in my army which will soon be marching forth to attack other nations, during which you may possibly die violently. In the meantime, you will endure grueling training and vast make-work projects to keep you busy."

Starts to feel a lot like slavery where you feed the slaves a bit better.

Which then ties into the whole "yeah, they're just going to kill their overseers and leave when they can".

My point exactly. Without getting into spoiler territory too much, when Daenerys gained her army of (former) slaves, it really felt like she liberated them first, no strings attached (or at least as few strings attached as she could manage given the circumstances). What's discussed here is trying to press people into service while appearing to emancipate them, and I feel at least those who've spent some time in slavery already are bound to notice the difference and act accordingly.

[Volivat]

nalak42 Going by the manacle and coin book, slaves are in most cases broken prior to being sold to the end customer. So it is likely that most of the slaves have been through hell and isnt very headstrong. Though there are absolutely probably decent numbers that have been keeping their head down for their chance to become free again.

The time isnt horrible, roman legionaries enlisted for a 25 year period.




Odd_Canuck & Morangias I was writing from what a typical slave might think when contemplating that offer. They would be unsure if they would receive help making the trip away from the camp. Even if they would be given their chance to catch a ride with caravans going across the desert and/or supplies that would make it a not a certain death. The rest of the scenario doesn't change, your an ex-slave and your situation is shitty no matter how you look at it.

Again to make it clear I am arguing that there is a significant % of slaves that would accept an offer such as this, not everyone. I disagree with the scenario where a tiny minority accepts it and the rest figures out they are going to try their luck getting back to wherever they came from prior to slavery. Which seems to be what is the opinion of several of those that argue that gaining these slaves acceptance of such a proposal is extremely unlikely.

[Abakus]

Good lord, you're doing it for ten years? And it's that or die of exposure? Morangias is right, they're going to accept your offer and bail the moment they can. What you're describing is pretty much slavery anyways. "Serve me or die" doesn't stop being slavery just because you pay them a fair wage. That's gone from being a persuade action to a threaten action. And that...is not going to end well for your tiger warrior training.

Edit: I'd say ten years of service (after years of slavery) easily puts you into life altering task. You can't use a major intimacy for that, you need a defining. Some of them might be threatened or bargained into agreeing, but in terms of persuade actions, the vast majority of them can tell your Solar to fuck right off without even spending a Willpower. That's easily mechanically Unacceptable at our table.

[Volivat]

Edit: I'd say ten years of service (after years of slavery) easily puts you into life altering task. You can't use a major intimacy for that, you need a defining. Some of them might be threatened or bargained into agreeing, but in terms of persuade actions, the vast majority of them can tell your Solar to fuck right off without even spending a Willpower. That's easily mechanically Unacceptable at our table.

You might be right on the life altering task, so ignore that part. It could be changed to fit with whatever flies under the serious task category. I disagree with some of your points (the application of the anti-master intimacy and therefore making any attempt to persuade them to accept a role as a soldier as unacceptable influence being one) and we are unlikely to agree here it seems so ill leave it at that.


Again thanks to everyone for their feedback. It has given me several ideas and issues to contemplate if this occurs in our game.

[Volivat]

Again thanks to everyone for their feedback. It has given me several ideas and issues to contemplate if this occurs in our game.

[nalak42]

Umm Volivat those 25 years had a lot of perks to them that the situations you're describing doesn't have. First the easy part, they were roman citizens. There was already an innate affection for their homeland to build off of. Your people are slaves you bought, so you'll need some time for them to have any affection for you as the bit where you're buying them is going to raise suspicions and they'll be presuming that you do want slaves and are just saying they're free to feed your ego or something. So you're going to need work there. (Hell we're also assuming you didn't get screwed and a bunch of them are freshly caught and basically beaten into submission because of a bulk order as was brought up as a possibility earlier.)

Second,benefits package. Legionairres got paid, got loot, could take slaves (which would just be so very awkward if you offered that in your forces) and when one became a veteran you got land. Not even counting that the ranks could confer social standing with the equivalent of General basically becoming a governor for a province. Granted your gear, supplies, and food were taken out of your pay but hey there were perks if you did well and avoided dying. You haven't really mentioned anything about that, and you know the incentives beyond training are an important distinction between fighting slave and soldier.

Third, and probably the most important aspect, enemies. Who are they fighting? Who are they supposed to be willing to give up a decade of their life in the best case scenario to oppose? Hell what is the thing they're supposed to want to destroy so badly that they'll side with someone that 95% of them will notice is demon spawn the first time he has to exert himself. (And I checked none of the war charms in the core have mute, so you're least going to have a caste mark on your forehead for them to notice.)

Again I get what you're saying that not everyone will refuse, but you have elements that work against the image you're kind of working with as your basis. You're liberation is "I bought all of you. Now you can fight for me or go home." Which has additional problems if you're also banking on an obvious case of not knowing where they are or have any chance of foraging successfully. So you aren't the glorious liberator who freed them from their abusive masters that would give them the major incentive to side with you. If the only reason they've got to stay is that they don't think they'll survive leaving then you'll end up with rather large desertion as soon as they think they can.