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  • #16
    Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
    I don't know if it was created by the death of the Primordials, but whatever its origins, it definitely does not seem like the kind of thing a reincarnationist religion like the Immaculate Philosophy would recognize as a natural part of life.
    Oh hell no. As far as I can gather, being a good Immaculate more or less means sitting down, shutting up, knowing your place, and serving appropriately. While a work of second edition, I do remember a moment of enlightenment in reading the introduction to the Thousand Correct Actions of the Upright Soldier, which extols the virtues of being one among many, of eschewing personal ambition in service of the greater whole.

    You can't reduce people to figurative cogs in the machine, but the Immaculate Philosophy certainly tries its best to lionize just that with good reason: soldiers (and peons and servants and slaves) who know their place and curb their ambitions are significantly less likely to have the sort of drive toward personal excellence that can make a good Exalt.

    Back to my point: ghosts are also failures at knowing their place. By dint of being still aware and active after their own deaths, they aren't fulfilling their proper role as newborn Realm citizens. They may not be Exalted or even particularly antagonistic to the Realm, but they can easily be called Anathema: their very existence is wrong according to the Dragons and their writings.

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    • #17
      I really like the idea of the Underworld having gods too. On the other hand, I like the Silver Prince's rhetoric that because the Gods care not for Skullstone, they've turned to the righteous dead to take their place. There are probably ways to handle that where you can have both, though.

      Originally posted by Lanaya View Post
      There's no means for any kind of Exalt to summon or bind a god. Elementals, demons and ghosts have to suffer that indignity, but not gods.
      2e Deathknights had a charm called Spirit-Chaining Doom which allowed them to bind gods as an alternative to killing them with the mirror of Ghost-Eating Technique. 2e Sidereals had a similar power with a Bureaucracy charm, Terminal Sanction.

      Both Charms involved binding a god by "killing" it (I'm oversimplifying the Sidereal case, but it's pretty close) and neither charm allows a god to be summoned.

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      • #18
        Regarding the naturality or unnaturality of the underworld, there's this quote:
        Originally posted by Exalted 3e, p114
        Perhaps there was once a time when death was the only means of passage between the lands of the living and the dead. If so, that time was long ago; the Underworld resides close by Creation in the Second Age, and where too many souls have passed into the lands below too quickly, or where the living world has been scarred by sufficient atrocity, the Underworld may bleed up into the sunlit world. These places where death and life commingle are known as shadowlands.
        This offers a few thoughts on the matter.
        1) It's possible shadowlands didn't exist at first; people died and awoke in the underworld, and reincarnated or lingered therein, but eventually were swept away or passed on.
        2) The fact that a shadowland primarily arises from atrocities or calamities rather than spontaneously opening like a Yu Shan gate suggests that they at least could easily be seen as not a Natural thing.
        I would presume that any god overseeing the dead in some way post-death is likely to be a forbidden god who owes no allegiance to Heaven.

        As far as Abyssals specifically, my thoughts on the matter. At base an Abyssal is likely seen as something akin to a ghost; they're more like a visitor from a foreign, strange land rather than an Enemy of Creation at base. Leveraging their tremendous power may upset gods, but it is more likely the upset of 'something strong is muscling in on my territory', rather than 'this is an abomination that should not be'. An abyssal acting in a way that is clearly antagonistic to Creation may be upgraded from 'dangerous tourist' to 'deliberate threat'.
        Last edited by Meianno Yuurei; 03-19-2017, 04:28 AM.

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        • #19
          I don't think gods overseeing death would intrinsically be Forbidden Gods. Like if Heaven wants someone to oversee it, why would they make them forbidden? I would also wager that for like, almost all of the spirits which may or may not fit that title in the Celestial Bureaucracy are not involved with the Underworld but with the normal process of reincarnation.

          That quote is interesting for an unrelated reason though. Namely the idea that in the past perhaps the only way to get there was to die, but that Big Deaths may have made shadowlands possible.

          This information is somewhat unremarkable when considered in the context of previous editions, but I want to suggest it might be exciting because of how in 3rd edition, the Underworld does not at all correspond to Creation... EXCEPT for Shadowlands.

          In the beginning, it might have all just been water. Infinite rivers and water and a hole in the middle that was the Void. Maybe then whatever made Shadowlands start happening is what allows for the Underworld to become a place with islands and rivers rather than a great waterbed of nothingness.

          EDIT: In fairness, there probably already were a bunch of places there way back when, I just mean to say that shadowlands compel a connection between Creation and the Underworld that doesn't seem to exist otherwise, which is in part reflected by the suggestion that, in 3rd Edition, it is no longer eyeliner Creation.
          Last edited by Leetsepeak; 03-19-2017, 07:43 AM.


          Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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          • #20
            Oh, I agree that if heaven assigned a God to go to the underworld and do stuff there, they wouldn't be a forbidden god; it was more operating from the assumption that heaven hasn't, being more preoccupied with the state of Creation and the living (who provide prayer) than the dead (who don't, at least to anywhere near the same extent, and mostly intrude on creation and cause troubles and competition).

            If heaven does decide to intervene in the affairs of the dead and appoints a god to that task, of course he'd be sanctioned in that role.

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            • #21
              What about the relationship between Abyssals and Liminals?

              Abyssals come from solar exaltations corrupted by the death lords, while liminals are 'created' but we don't yet know by whom. And the liminal have references to hunting the dead in creation, so where do they stand on death knights?


              Visit me at Tales of Grey - my RPG Game-Master's blog.

              "If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy, I could have won" - I gave you all, Mumford & Sons

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              • #22
                Originally posted by CapitanTypo View Post
                What about the relationship between Abyssals and Liminals?

                Abyssals come from solar exaltations corrupted by the death lords, while liminals are 'created' but we don't yet know by whom. And the liminal have references to hunting the dead in creation, so where do they stand on death knights?
                Liminals are created by various people attempting to ressurect the dead. Then the Dark Mother gets involved and all that. That said we don't really know enough about how the Abyssals work this time around to figure how they'll handle the Liminals and we know very little about how the Liminals tend to feel about anything, so yeah we're in the dark there.

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                • #23
                  Yes, but remember that 'dead is dead' in Exalted, so the Liminal Exalted are failed attempts at resurrection or successes of creation. In effect, they are resurrections or creations given Exaltation by the Dark Mother to allow them to live. Now, I think they could be very interesting, but we really know nothing about them except for a few pages in 3e.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                    Liminals are created by various people attempting to ressurect the dead.
                    Where is that much even coming from?

                    The core just says "made in madness, and born in death" and then talks about the Liminal having an indelible link to their creator and that when the creator (a living soul) dies then the Liminal starts to rot and become a monster. It implies a necromantic ritual, to be sure, but resurrection? Has 3rd ed done away with the "dead is dead is dead" metaphysical rule of creation?



                    Visit me at Tales of Grey - my RPG Game-Master's blog.

                    "If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy, I could have won" - I gave you all, Mumford & Sons

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      Yes, but remember that 'dead is dead' in Exalted, so the Liminal Exalted are failed attempts at resurrection or successes of creation. In effect, they are resurrections or creations given Exaltation by the Dark Mother to allow them to live. Now, I think they could be very interesting, but we really know nothing about them except for a few pages in 3e.
                      Sorry, I hadn't read your message before I replied above. I'm kind of leaning towards the 'success of creation', in large part because resurrection just ain't a thing in Creation. But that makes them a kind of Frankenstein's monster that can be created, I'm assuming, by the sacrifice of a living person to be the original brain, but that means someone creates a zombie-like exalted creature to police the incursion of the dead into creation? That part I struggle with. If we knew how long Liminals had been around it would help, because then we'd know if they are a recent creation, a product of the primordial war, or an abomination from before then (but then, do we even know if this version of creation has the 'there were no ghosts or underworld before the primordial war' element to the setting?)

                      I do, however, have my plot hook for the introduction of a Liminal exalt into my game. A liminal seeks partnership and to be bound to a Solar exalt - because then their lifespan is going to be a hell of a lot longer, so the Liminal will become like a groupie/sidekick to the party until one of them agrees to bond with it.

                      On a slightly more morbid thought, the details of Liminals in the back of the book talks about how it might take days or weeks to graft new limbs on, and that if just the brain survives then they can rebuild themselves.

                      How the ever living f*ck does a brain, or even just a decapitated head, graft anything onto anything else? Does it just sit there on the side of the road waiting until a stranger passes by and asks them politely "have you got a spare corpse handy? oh, and can you sew?"


                      Visit me at Tales of Grey - my RPG Game-Master's blog.

                      "If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy, I could have won" - I gave you all, Mumford & Sons

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by CapitanTypo View Post

                        Where is that much even coming from?

                        The core just says "made in madness, and born in death" and then talks about the Liminal having an indelible link to their creator and that when the creator (a living soul) dies then the Liminal starts to rot and become a monster. It implies a necromantic ritual, to be sure, but resurrection? Has 3rd ed done away with the "dead is dead is dead" metaphysical rule of creation?
                        This came from earlier on. I remember Holden discussing a theoretical Liminal who was created by a Wood King who dismembered a dozen people, mixed up the body parts to make a single individual and then tried to reanimate it. He accidentally made a Liminal though.

                        So dead is still dead. But sometimes when someone tries to resurrect the dead, something happens and you get Liminals. It's not that person. It's something else though it might be using that person's body and have a few of that person's memories.

                        That said, I don't think that specifically attempts at resurrection are the only way that Liminals are created, but probably anything that would end up creating one involves the dark and unholy power of the Underworld in some way.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                          This came from earlier on. I remember Holden discussing a theoretical Liminal who was created by a Wood King who dismembered a dozen people, mixed up the body parts to make a single individual and then tried to reanimate it. He accidentally made a Liminal though.

                          So dead is still dead. But sometimes when someone tries to resurrect the dead, something happens and you get Liminals. It's not that person. It's something else though it might be using that person's body and have a few of that person's memories.

                          That said, I don't think that specifically attempts at resurrection are the only way that Liminals are created, but probably anything that would end up creating one involves the dark and unholy power of the Underworld in some way.

                          There's a big difference between resurrect and reanimate - and I think that's the difference i'm stuck on at the moment.


                          Visit me at Tales of Grey - my RPG Game-Master's blog.

                          "If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy, I could have won" - I gave you all, Mumford & Sons

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CapitanTypo View Post
                            There's a big difference between resurrect and reanimate - and I think that's the difference i'm stuck on at the moment.
                            Most of this comes from the 3e What We Know wiki.

                            The key concept of Liminal creation appears to be "attempts to bring life from death" - attempts to resurrect the dead, and attempts to create new life from the dead a la Frankenstein's monster. However, almost nobody sets out to create a Liminal - they're generally working on their own projects when the dark mother intervenes. She's the one who decides on the creation of a Liminal.

                            They first appear in the Shogunate era, but are ruled out as being a reaction to the Usurpation. (From what hatewheel said, there appears to be a reason why they started being created, but it's not the Usurpation.)

                            Hatewheel provided a Liminal opinion on Abyssals: Dangerous, alluring, confusing. My attraction to the vitality in this one will be my downfall.


                            Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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                            • #29
                              I think an example Liminal from the preview doc was created by a forest god trying to make the perfect priestess for himself. So he had his priestesses slaughtered, cut up and then sewn back together with the intent of animating this "perfected priestess" and she would serve the way he was entitled to. Then of course the animation worked and well the resulting Liminal had the memories of those used to make it, but not being them decided to end the god instead of worshipping it.

                              Granted this was back in the kickstarter, so the connection between Liminal and creator that's mentioned in the core might not have even been a consideration at the time.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                                I think an example Liminal from the preview doc was created by a forest god trying to make the perfect priestess for himself. So he had his priestesses slaughtered, cut up and then sewn back together with the intent of animating this "perfected priestess" and she would serve the way he was entitled to. Then of course the animation worked and well the resulting Liminal had the memories of those used to make it, but not being them decided to end the god instead of worshipping it.

                                Granted this was back in the kickstarter, so the connection between Liminal and creator that's mentioned in the core might not have even been a consideration at the time.
                                Yeah, there's a lot about liminals - intriguing as they are - that doesn't seem entirely thought out.

                                Sometimes 'mysterious' is just a cover for not knowing.


                                Visit me at Tales of Grey - my RPG Game-Master's blog.

                                "If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy, I could have won" - I gave you all, Mumford & Sons

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