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Is Vitriol an Element?

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  • Is Vitriol an Element?

    IIRC, Elementals become dragons on reaching a certain Essence. I forget _how_ they reach higher essence, but they can.
    Metodies have been described as Elementals of Vitriol (but are more like demons? I mean they are demons, but they are also elementals?)
    Could Metodies like Elementals become dragons? (I know we have the one, Kimbery's 2nd circle who's the Vitriol Dragon, but she feels less elemental then dragon if that makes sense?)

    I'm asking because eventually I'm hoping to use Vitriol Aspected Dragonblooded in a game, and wanted to know how much hand wavium to apply.


    Restoring demonic glory in Infernals:What Hell Has Wrought

  • #2
    This was only second edition, so who knows in 1st. The explanation is that Proto-Malfeas had wanted to add Vitrol to the elemental aspects of Creation, but then for one reason or another it just didn't happen. So Creation proper doesn't view Vitrol as an element, but it is in Malfeas. So these Vitrol elementals in Malfeas can be viewed as actual elementals there, but are just demons in Creation as they are of Malfeas.

    The Vitriol dragon is a 2nd circle demon, so she's not an elemental she's a subordinant soul to a third circle who is a fragment soul of The Sea that Marched Against the Flame.

    Can a Vitrol elemental become an elemental dragon. Nothing really says that they can, but it's an interesting idea/plot hook. So I'd allow it for a story with the argument that it's just not something easy to make these things even get on the right road let alone succeed at in Malfeas.

    Now the Dragonblood thing is an entirely different matter. See the elemental dragons that came from elementals aren't the same as the Elemental Dragons who were involved in the creation of the DBs. So even if a Metiod managed to become a Greater Elemental Dragon and not go full on Kukla it would still not be able to cause Vitrol aspected DBs. So once you get down trying to make vitrol Dbs you'll need a lot of phlebotinum if you don't want to make it so the Yozi have figured out a way to create armies of Dragonblood for themselves.

    Also as for elementals gaining essence, I think it involved meditation and enlightenment or something. I know Oberashti was mentioned as almost reaching Greater Elemental Dragon status through meditation on the concept of murder, so I think it was somewhere in there.
    Last edited by nalak42; 03-18-2017, 12:07 PM.

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    • #3
      That's a potentially interesting question too: are "Demon" and "Elemental" mutually exclusive?
      Given how varied Demons are (including some whose bodies are naturally material) I'd tend to think they're not, and that Metodies could, potentially, become Elemental Dragons; but don't for whatever reason -- maybe their progenitor keeps them down, or something about Malpheas prevents Elementals from growing?
      Something like that.


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      • #4
        That's a thorny subject actually.

        Is Vitriol an element? In Creation, not at all, in Malfeas it might be so, as the substance seems to encompass a number of qualities and associations that resonate with more than one Yozi & its spiritual constituents - Malfeas and Kimbery in particular come to mind. Big question is, does Vitriol have an existence of its own, independent of the actions of supernatural beings? Or to cite something in 2e, does the river flow or fire burn without its spirit to make it do so?

        What is the assertion of metodies as "Elementals of Vitriol" actually supposed to mean? Do they, like actual elementals, have a nature, that unlike other sorts of spirits, is more physical than ephemeral, being literal vitriol their "natural" state instead of the "immaterialness" of demons - and other spirits - in general?

        Or is their title more poetic than literal, simply a metaphor of sorts referencing how they personify that unfinished state/quality never wholy given form of its own by its makers? Overall my guess from evidence so far is the later.

        That said, the metodies are nothing if not defined by their mimetic/memetic antagonism, so it might be possible for things to change in the long run if one or more of them ended up mirroring/matching themselves to actual elementals, specially if their "chosen nemeses" eventually reached the elemental dragon tier - and did not obliterate the ambitious demons along the way, obviously.

        Supposing that kind of "quantum leap" among one of the masses of natives of the Demon Realm did not catch the attention of some of the more status concious or paranoid among the chained titans or their countless progeny and spawn, that is.
        Last edited by Baaldam; 03-18-2017, 12:49 PM.

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        • #5
          I would generally say yes, Vitriol is an element. While it's not one of Creation's five native elements, it's as much an element in Malfeas as Crystal, Lightning and Oil are elements in Autochthon.

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          • #6
            Games of Divinity refers to vitriol as an element and metody as elementals (as well as being progeny of Gervesin)

            Originally posted by Epee102 View Post
            Could Metodies like Elementals become dragons?
            I would say that metody who grow sufficiently powerful are more often reflections on the individual whose opposition inspired them to reach such heights.

            Originally posted by Epee102
            I'm asking because eventually I'm hoping to use Vitriol Aspected Dragonblooded in a game, and wanted to know how much hand wavium to apply.
            ​That seems like something you could do regardless of anything to do with metody.

            ​I wouldn't call the lack of an explanation there hand waving. Really, just a bit of extra details for metody wouldn't exactly lead in that direction in the first place.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by nalak42 View Post


              Now the Dragonblood thing is an entirely different matter. See the elemental dragons that came from elementals aren't the same as the Elemental Dragons who were involved in the creation of the DBs. So even if a Metiod managed to become a Greater Elemental Dragon and not go full on Kukla it would still not be able to cause Vitrol aspected DBs. So once you get down trying to make vitrol Dbs you'll need a lot of phlebotinum if you don't want to make it so the Yozi have figured out a way to create armies of Dragonblood for themselves.
              See, this and Metody's antagonism to a specific individual both escaped me ( a good thing to have caught, now that one is a Twilight's familar in my game).

              my 'how' was basically a house/Gens/DB family that had been by one way or another moved to Malfeas. So less 'Yozi created' and more 'Adapted to Malfeas' angle.


              Restoring demonic glory in Infernals:What Hell Has Wrought

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              • #8
                Metody are demons and elementals at the same time. Read "Other Notes" in BoS II pg 84. Clouds of Malfeas are demonic elementals like the Metody CoCD Malfeas pg 21.

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                • #9
                  What is exactly element?
                  - Quality that resonates in all creation ?
                  - Or just substance that have beings associated with it ?
                  In first case Virtiol is not element in second is. In any case Virtiol is not present in creation and incorporating it as creation's
                  element would require rebuilding creation on very basic level(just declaring some being as Creation's new elemental would not cut it)
                  would/should have broad repercussion on nature of Creation.
                  It also implicates that elements/elementals in early creation were substance existing independently in stabler parts of wyld as not all
                  elements have to come from Primordials perhaps it's still possible to find those places/beings be it in Wyld or somewhere in Malfeas.

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                  • #10
                    On these forums? You bet!

                    *rimshot*

                    I'll see myself out now.




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                    • #11
                      The method of procreation of "dragons of a different color" (from the corpse elements) may include the Vitriol element. If Elemental Dragon is part of the process then it makes everything unique. The Black Treatise not explain the method nor does it prevent the Vitriol element. (necromancy would not be a valid quality)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ludek View Post
                        It also implicates that elements/elementals in early creation were substance existing independently in stabler parts of wyld as not all
                        elements have to come from Primordials perhaps it's still possible to find those places/beings be it in Wyld or somewhere in Malfeas.
                        Ink Monkeys explains that Gaia was creating elements in Zen-Mu.

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                        • #13
                          I want to go back and incorporate the oppositional self-definition thing into my homebrew conversion of Metody, but it's hard to reflect for them.


                          Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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                          • #14
                            Do Elementals have a different origin in 3rd edition? In the older editions there were 5 giant elementals whose bodies were shattered into tiny pieces, and those pieces are the elementals we see in the setting today. But I know some people didn't like this, and I was wondering if we've heard whether this would change or not.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                              Do Elementals have a different origin in 3rd edition? In the older editions there were 5 giant elementals whose bodies were shattered into tiny pieces, and those pieces are the elementals we see in the setting today. But I know some people didn't like this, and I was wondering if we've heard whether this would change or not.
                              Yeah, I think I remember some mention of that no longer being the case for EX3.

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