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Is Vitriol an Element?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    Do Elementals have a different origin in 3rd edition?
    Insofar as they don't have a known origin explicated in the Core, yes. Instead of being the explicit servant-creations of the gods, this time 'round they might be older than the gods.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-18-2017, 08:33 PM.

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    • #17
      Alrighty, thanks. I wasn't sure if any of the Dev's had said whether they were thinking of changing anything or not. I certainly wouldn't mind if they did - I never overly cared for their original creation story to begin with.

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      • #18
        Mela, Pasiap, Hesiesh, Daana'd and Sextes Jylis are all souls of Gaia. Perhaps if you alter your setting slightly so that the Vitriolic Dragon is a Yozi's soul, rather than a 2nd Circle Demon, then it would make sense for that dragon to exalt a new element of Dragon-Blooded. I vaguely recall something (that I'm pretty sure was never clearly defined) about how a "Progenitive" 2nd Circle Demon could become a 3rd Circle Demon. That approach might enable you to make that setting change with less rewriting, if that kind of thing bothers you. Though I'm guessing if you want to introduce a 6th Aspect, it probably doesn't.

        They'd probably have an edge over other Terrestrials too, as they wouldn't have a couple of thousand years of breeding with mortals to dilute their blood. I imagine that every Vitriol aspect would have Breeding 5, just like the First Age Terrestrials. Would the Vitriolic Dragon forbid them from breeding with mortals? Would it forbid them from breeding with Gaian Terrestrials?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Thousand_Comforts_Base View Post
          Mela, Pasiap, Hesiesh, Daana'd and Sextes Jylis are all souls of Gaia.
          Not quite - the Elemental Dragons are her children, and the names given them by the Immaculate canon may or may not be their actual names.

          (Also, according to dev statements, Breeding will most likely be a primarily social merit in Ex3, albeit it will affect your children'a chances of Exaltation.)
          Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-18-2017, 10:01 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
            Not quite - the Elemental Dragons are her children, and the names given them by the Immaculate canon may or may not be their actual names.
            Huh, really? I could've sworn I read something somewhere about scholars speculating on why Gaia had so few souls, i.e. did she hide them, was she weaker than other Primordials, do they take some unrecognisable form, etc.. Maybe I'm confusing something I read on a forum with something I read in some indeterminate source book, but I was pretty sure... Still, canon can be contradictory.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Thousand_Comforts_Base View Post

              Huh, really? I could've sworn I read something somewhere about scholars speculating on why Gaia had so few souls, i.e. did she hide them, was she weaker than other Primordials, do they take some unrecognisable form, etc.. Maybe I'm confusing something I read on a forum with something I read in some indeterminate source book, but I was pretty sure... Still, canon can be contradictory.
              Second edition has a lot to answer for.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                Second edition has a lot to answer for.
                Honestly, no big deal, it points out more to a lack of info in the part of the Exalted host and silly attempts to cover the ignorance than anything. Calling it canon might be a little much, unless some aspect of the game actually hinged in such a debatable idea.

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                • #23
                  Vitriol is a textbook case of runaway development, I think. Let's be honest - the element was created to make the write up for the metody more interesting. It was likely poorly considered within the greater metaphysics of the line. The flavor text for that demon, by extension, ended up having a vast impact on Malfeas itself, expanding the intention (probably) considerably. And Vitriol isn't really even that inspired. It's just super acid, basically? Vitriol is an interesting analogy for 2e in general in this respect.

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                  • #24
                    Yeah, I'm not sure how meaningful it is to define Vitriol as an element or not. What changes if it is or it isn't?


                    Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Piff View Post
                      Vitriol is a textbook case of runaway development, I think. Let's be honest - the element was created to make the write up for the metody more interesting. It was likely poorly considered within the greater metaphysics of the line. The flavor text for that demon, by extension, ended up having a vast impact on Malfeas itself, expanding the intention (probably) considerably. And Vitriol isn't really even that inspired. It's just super acid, basically? Vitriol is an interesting analogy for 2e in general in this respect.
                      I agree that vitriol as a thing exists in the setting more as an evocative element than a seriously thought out one. Not to mention most 2e references to Vitriol seem to have more to do with Kimbery as a primeval corrosive sea and Great Mother that can be doting but also full of never-ending spite than anything relating to the Metody's fluff.

                      Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
                      Yeah, I'm not sure how meaningful it is to define Vitriol as an element or not. What changes if it is or it isn't?
                      Exactly my issue. There's loads to define in such an idea and it beggars the question "how does one make an story out of it in the first place?", preferably one that sounds more complex and interesting than "get xp => raise Essence => profit" overall.

                      "What makes something an elemental in the first place?" and "does a metody fit the definition? If not, why and how does it matter?" are the starting questions for the topic, i guess.

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                      • #26
                        This is totally me being pedantic since I think we're all roughly on the same page, but the unique or peculiar nature of Vitriol or vitriol as an element as a story doesn't seem like it lacks serious forethought. I think people just fixate on that stuff and 2e just made it worse sometimes.

                        Malfeas doesn't have to have Elements or Elemental Poles or anything like that, and having a preponderance of acid with a funky name that ancient stories call the element of Malfeas is evocative and poetic and I wouldn't try to explain it more than that.

                        I guess what I'm trying to say is that it may Not Be That Deep, but I don't think it's unintentionally shallow.

                        Never forget what happened to the Salgoth Gates, y'know?


                        Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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                        • #27
                          I think if Vitriol is an element then it raises the possibility of elemental.... species? besides the metody. I like it having the same weight as the corpse elements, where it's philosophically elemental but not like Creation's five.


                          But sexually.

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                          • #28
                            Vitriol and the corpse element are elements in the same way as the native elements of Creation. The difference is that they do not make up the whole matter of their Realms of Existence.

                            Remember that in Autochthonia people drink water (recycled) rather than oil or steam. An alchemical process extracts the aspects-elements of the original element.

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                            • #29
                              I can not imagine the elements of Exalted as the elements of our periodic table. They are Platonic elements, philosophies with material manifestation. I recommend "Analogy of the divided line" of Plato in Wikipedia (mathematical explanation about the world using 4 lines = 4 elements).

                              In Exalted there is alchemy and Plato is correct just as there is no chemistry and Antoine Lavoisier is wrong.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                                I would generally say yes, Vitriol is an element. While it's not one of Creation's five native elements, it's as much an element in Malfeas as Crystal, Lightning and Oil are elements in Autochthon.
                                Autochthonia is actually Autochthon's body, while Creation is absolutely not Gaia's body.

                                If the five elements of Creation aren't a part of Gaia, then the six elements of Authchthonia are something different, because they ARE a part of a Primordial.


                                Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                                My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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