Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is Vitriol an Element?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Ellis View Post
    I think if Vitriol is an element then it raises the possibility of elemental.... species? besides the metody. I like it having the same weight as the corpse elements, where it's philosophically elemental but not like Creation's five.
    Ah, I understand where you're coming from. I guess it's worth asking ourselves if that assumption needs to follow or if it's actually necessary to create it as an intersecting category of being with First Circle Demon. It strikes me that if you wanted to make other creatures with vitriol involved in their powers or concepts, that it's totally fine, and that it needn't be or not be a capital E Element for that to happen.

    FWIW, I think even if I felt that the answer to the question was yes, I would say that the singular nature of the Metody is rather suitable to Vitriol, and that its shapeshifting capabilities really does a lot to mitigate the conceptual need for other things to reflect the "Element of Vitriol."


    Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Rochedo View Post

      In Exalted there is alchemy and Plato is correct just as there is no chemistry
      ​In this context, what is the meaningful difference between alchemy and chemistry?

      ​For one thing, people definitely make alcoholic beverages in Creation, and they do it in all the ways that are familiar to us because coming up with an alternative process just to maintain consistency in an element of setting minutiae that would go unnoticed by people is just something that would probably slide off most people. So that necessarily means that you take liquids that contain sugars, and subject them to a process that converts the sugars into alcohols.

      ​Hell, here's enough chemistry going on in the world for the biology of beasts of resplendent liquid to convert poppies into heroin.

      Originally posted by Rochedo
      Antoine Lavoisier is wrong.
      ​You know, that does raise the question; does the concept of pure substances exist in Creation? Can you separate one thing from another sufficient to wind up with something that cannot be purified any further?

      ​Heh, considering some of the achievements of the specific chemist that you've cited, I wonder if anybody would portray somebody as being at risk of suffocation if they were locked in a tightly enclosed room with a fire.

      ​I don't know; there are qualities of the elemental schema and conceptions of what processes can and cannot be achieved in the setting that I'm okay with, but there is ultimately a point at which broad statements of "Creation has no chemistry/biology/physics" are postulating a world that is completely ludicrous to me.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

      Comment


      • #33
        The way I've got the physics thing banked for my stuff, my group has a few people that went into the munchkin chemist/physicist thing from mage, is to just explain that Creation is a world that was designed by committee and unfortunately a group of mad gods made up the committee. Consequently some things work as normal; some things don't work like they should; some things look like they work the way they should, but don't work normally; and some things don't work at all like they should in the real world.

        Simplest point that I bring up is that Creation doesn't orbit the sun, and is literally a flat world. (If I recall that last bit properly) So there are points where physics just doesn't match up to real world..

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          Autochthonia is actually Autochthon's body, while Creation is absolutely not Gaia's body.

          If the five elements of Creation aren't a part of Gaia, then the six elements of Authchthonia are something different, because they ARE a part of a Primordial.
          Well, Autochthon's write up in 2nd edition (specifically page 64 of MoEP: Alchemicals) makes it clear that Autochthon's body is formed from 6 elements, which are different from the five elements that were used to construct Creation. His elements have their own Elementals and and are treated as elements in all other ways, Crystal Elementals are Elementals, not spirits or gods, etc, etc.

          That might change in 3rd edition (though we're probably at least a decade away from getting an Alchemicals splat book), but it seems reasonable that if Autochthon's world-body can contain 6 unique types of Element, then it wouldn't surprise me if Malfeas could contain Vitriol as a unique type of element.

          Comment


          • #35
            I just think that in Third Edition, the meaningful difference between Elements / Elementals and everything else is that the Elements existed independently of the Primordials. The Elements are things they FOUND and then used as the bedrock to build Creation, and the Elementals were already there.

            Vitriol very well could have been an Element that Malfeas/Theion wanted to include, and that he personally kept after Gaia rejected it. As an Element, it could spawn its own Elementals which are not Demons.

            As the Great Inventor, Autochthon might have made his own, brand-new Elements based on those original six, with Smoke being analogous to Vitriol. As the cyborg Primordial, he might have implanted those Elements into himself in a way that disquiets the other Primordials.


            Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

            My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
              Crystal Elementals are Elementals, not spirits or gods…
              Elementals are categorically spirits. This is like someone saying they've made a square that is not also a rectangle.

              And you say you found this in Autobot's 2e writeup? Oy vey.
              Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-20-2017, 10:10 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                You're right, I shouldn't have used the word spirit, thanks for pointing that out. Elementals, Gods and Demons are all types spirits, but they're not all the same thing. Autochthon's Elementals aren't spirits or part of his soul hierarchy, they're Elementals and in that respect no different from Creation's Elementals, save that they're formed from different types of elements.
                Last edited by AnubisXy; 03-21-2017, 12:51 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                  Autochthonia is actually Autochthon's body, while Creation is absolutely not Gaia's body.

                  If the five elements of Creation aren't a part of Gaia, then the six elements of Authchthonia are something different, because they ARE a part of a Primordial.
                  Actually, they are IN a part of a Primordial, but there's much in the books related to Autochtonia that implies they are not part of Auto's soul hierarchy in any way, though beholden to him by virtue of service and inhabiting inside his world-body. Not to mention it's where we get some of the first fluff inklings that the whole "five great elementals" are what the gods believe in, but a number might have already existed outside their view long before that.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                    Actually, they are IN a part of a Primordial, but there's much in the books related to Autochtonia that implies they are not part of Auto's soul hierarchy in any way, though beholden to him by virtue of service and inhabiting inside his world-body. Not to mention it's where we get some of the first fluff inklings that the whole "five great elementals" are what the gods believe in, but a number might have already existed outside their view long before that.
                    I never said a word about them being part of his soul hierarchy.

                    Plus, they're not merely IN his body, they ARE his body. Autochthonia is composed entirely of Crystal, Metal, Oil, Lightning, Steam, and Smoke. Autochthonia is repeatedly referred to as the body of the Machine God -- the pole of Crystal is his brain, the pole of Metal is his flesh and bone, the pole of Oil is his heart and blood, the pole of Smoke is his diseased lung and also his stomach (since it contains the acids that he uses to recycle the waste materials that fall to his bottom-most pits). His chosen elements compose his vital organs.


                    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                      I never said a word about them being part of his soul hierarchy.

                      Plus, they're not merely IN his body, they ARE his body. Autochthonia is composed entirely of Crystal, Metal, Oil, Lightning, Steam, and Smoke. Autochthonia is repeatedly referred to as the body of the Machine God -- the pole of Crystal is his brain, the pole of Metal is his flesh and bone, the pole of Oil is his heart and blood, the pole of Smoke is his diseased lung and also his stomach (since it contains the acids that he uses to recycle the waste materials that fall to his bottom-most pits). His chosen elements compose his vital organs.
                      But the elementals seem not to be and that is the point i was driving at, being a part of the Machine-God only in the sense that the autochtonians that worship it would be, there being mention of the Machine-God destroying certain of the greatest among them due to seeing their existence as a potential threat to his well-being while in the slumber.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                        But the elementals seem not to be and that is the point i was driving at, being a part of the Machine-God only in the sense that the autochtonians that worship it would be
                        NONE of this makes any sense.

                        But most particularly, you seem to be having trouble understanding my position that Autochthon could have made six Elements part of his BODY without needing to integrate them into the hierarchy of his SOULS.

                        Primordials are not spirits. They have bodies separate from their souls. Ligier is not the Demon City.


                        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                          NONE of this makes any sense.

                          But most particularly, you seem to be having trouble understanding my position that Autochthon could have made six Elements part of his BODY without needing to integrate them into the hierarchy of his SOULS.
                          I don't have a problem with that, i consider it irrelevant, because, last i checked, my focus was on the elementals per se and their connection or independence from the Machine-God. My overall impression now we are discussing two completely different issues that only have in common touching on the matter of Autochtonians elements.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            My position is that, in this Edition, the Primordials did not create the Elements, but merely found them and used them to make Creation, which is separate from Gaia's souls and bodies. Elementals already arose from the Elements.

                            For me, this is an important distinction for what qualifies as "an Element".

                            If Vitriol is a substance produced by Malfeas, it's not really an Element, any more than Malfean bronze or granite is, or the acidic waters of Kimberry, or the razor winds of Adjoran. These things would be the substance of Primordial bodies rather than independent Elements like Fire, Wood, Earth, Air, and Water. Vitriol would simply be the acidic manifestation of Malfeas's hatred, just as the acid waters are for Kimberry.

                            But Vitriol very well could have been a sixth original Element that was excluded from Creation, and which Malfeas decided to harbor inside his body as something independent of his own hatred. This Element would give rise to Vitriol Elementals.

                            A Metody would either be an elemental or a demon, but should not be both without some weird shenanigans. (Third Edition is explicitly introducing weird shenanigans to keep its world from being neatly explained or solved.) Regardless, there would lots more Vitriol elementals than Metodies.


                            What's interesting is that even though Gaia didn't create the five Elements or their elementals, the Five Elemental Dragons are her children, and explicitly not her souls. She made them from the Elements, or perhaps birthed them after intercourse with the Elements. The Dragons were something NEW to the elemental spirit courts.


                            Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                            My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X