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When are we going to get answers on Traits past 5

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  • When are we going to get answers on Traits past 5

    More or less I do like the idea that Exalted embraces the Essence 5 is the height of power theme. They don't want people worried about investing in EXP sinks for Abilities over 5. So I can if I have to get with 5 being flat out the peek of skill. But clearly things like Tyrant Lizards would have strength past 5, unless there strength is just what a bonus of their forms size?

    But it seems a problem for NPCs, because the various beings are limited to 5, so you are going to see a lot of repeated stats. Wargods and 2nd Circles are going to be quite limited. This is ignored by the using the QC rules.

    But it does irk me some.

    It would be helpful for designing on a Storytellers end if Exalted explained whether or not Skill and Attributes past 5 are at all a thing?


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  • #2
    Player Characters have Traits that have a general upper tier of 5. NPC stat blocks, which are abstractions mind you, do not need to follow that guideline.

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    • #3
      A lot of things are probably not going to get actual stat blocks so much as just the QC thing saying "melee attacks with a pool of 13." Though I wouldn't be too surprised if we ended up with creatures that had more than 10 in a combined stat block.

      I mean the Redwood Mantis in 1st had a straight up strength stat of 19 and I'm pretty sure 1st had that thing where stats weren't supposed to exceed 10 in a single block.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
        A lot of things are probably not going to get actual stat blocks so much as just the QC thing saying "melee attacks with a pool of 13." Though I wouldn't be too surprised if we ended up with creatures that had more than 10 in a combined stat block.

        I mean the Redwood Mantis in 1st had a straight up strength stat of 19 and I'm pretty sure 1st had that thing where stats weren't supposed to exceed 10 in a single block.
        No, 1e generally just didn't deal with stats higher than 10 for most powerful beings, and tended to relegate 11+ ratings to Strength and Stamina. Gods of War, Octavian, and particularly behemoths pretty universally had Strength and sometimes Stamina far in excess of 10, particularly Mt. Mostath, which had Strength and Stamina listed simply as Immeasurable on both counts, and standing under its foot resulted in death by 100 aggravated levels of damage when it wasn't simply just instant death.

        Edit: Also, for the question of the thread, I seem to recall mention that Traits would generally be kept down at 5 for the Exalted. Scroll down a ways here until you get to the bounded accuracy.
        Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 03-19-2017, 03:22 AM.

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        • #5
          There have been implications that Exalts might not get to buy up Attributes and Abilities above 5 even when they have Essence of 6 or more (Ancient Exalts should be a challenge for things more interesting than "you have to use half your max Excellency to match my base pool"). That doesn't mean that, if it turns out this way, that it has to be an universal rule.

          Various QC sheets imply greater-than-five Strength (due to Feats of Strength capability), and the Fair Folk Lorelei has Appearance over the "limit". Not a seduction pool or something that implies it, but clear as day, explicitly written, Appearance 7.

          Of course, while not in permanent, non-essence using ways, Solars can reach above 5 in a few Attributes. An Essence 5 Solar could reach up to Strength 10 and Appearance 8 with currently existing Charms. Don't expect anything to ever give Dexterity 6+ to an Exalt, though. That is a fast road to broken-city XD
          Last edited by danelsan; 03-19-2017, 12:58 PM.


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          • #6
            The conception of Fair Folk has definitely been stated to include that they can still possess superhuman traits (measured against generally lacking the power to raise them further), and I imagine it's something that still applies to certain mighty spirits.

            ​But I think that for the most part, powerful beings should be modelled through things other than inflating their stats, which can extend to an acknowledgement that they don't strictly need to be maximised in things.

            ​Hypothetically speaking, if Octavian and Ahlat both had Strength 5, and the basis for objecting to that and wanting it raised was just that it was the same for two of them, then where does the escalation end?


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            • #7
              Fair Folk having high average stats while lacking dice adders is kind of a weird thing when I think about it.

              I get what it fits symbolically - "The Fair Folk are habitually supernatural, but lack the ability to reach the genius and spirit to reach the heights of the Exalted!", etc.

              But at the same time it kind of seems like it sets them up to play conservatively against the Exalted, taking advantage of the fact that their high dice pools are "free" while the Exalted's cost them motes and to play a game of attrition, exhausting Exalted resources. That's not so intuitive to how I would have expected the dynamics of Fair Folk vs Exalted to go. (Unless I'm missing a trick?) Same kind of deal for any "high dice pool, no dice adders" spirits as well.

              Generally with the high stats it seems like it's important to keep that based around functionality, not symbolism - what do you need stats beyond 5 to do, and is that the best way of doing it? Otherwise, do we really need to hear about it?

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              • #8
                I think the Fair Folk not having huge mote pools is also something to think about in regards to that.

                I fully expect spirits and NPCs and the like to have stats which go beyond 5 as they need to, but not necessarily as some grant statement about them being really strong, but for fairly straightforward reasons like needing a certain amount of Strength to do certain FoS feats. And even then, it's likely to be abstracted in a dicepool such that it isn't apparent or important what the precise number is, only that they are strong enough to roll to get x or y outcome.

                Fair Folk being noted as having beyond max Attributes just strikes me as thing to do with the idea of making them playable.
                Last edited by Leetsepeak; 03-19-2017, 10:53 AM.


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                • #9
                  If you think about it, fair folk have very expensive attributes. They cost xp not motes. Im sure I get motes back faster than xp.

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                  • #10
                    I guess I don't understand the confusion here. The 1-5 scale represents the range of human ability, with 5 representing the maximum. It therefore makes sense to limit humans (i.e. Exalted) to a maximum of 5. Why would you apply a human scale to non-human entities?

                    There is no contradiction. Tyrant Lizards, Fair Folk, Second Circle demons...they don't play by the same game rules as humans because they aren't humans.


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                    • #11
                      Sure, but the Exalted are something greater than human, now. Its not so confusing to think that your superhuman could have above-human stats.

                      That said, im fine with the 5 dot cap.

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                      • #12
                        This may be more a philosophical difference, but I disagree. The Exalted are humans with the power of gods. They can, through their gifts, transcend the limitations of their human frame, but they are still at base humans. They can break the rules in specific ways, but the rules (by default) still apply to them.

                        Now I can imagine ways in which a specific person might seek to escape those limitations by transcending the human nature that shackles them. Such a transhumanist Exalt might turn to all manner of occult workings or bargains to escape the limits his human shell imposes. But IMO that's a great story and shouldn't be rendered moot by saying that The Exalted all have some cap-breaking mystical metamorphosis baked in.


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                        • #13
                          I think the current idea is that if an exalt has any capacities above that of a mortal, they're using a charm.

                          Super strength? Charm. Divine appearance? Charm.

                          Essence 6+ might let them go around with permanently 6+ stuff, but if they do, it'll be because of a charm.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                            Essence 6+ might let them go around with permanently 6+ stuff, but if they do, it'll be because of a charm.
                            Are you thinking something generic like Impossible Attribute [Improvement] in Dreams: Lords page 68 or something more specific and trade-off bound like a permanent Charm that increases your Wits beyond the cap by [Essence] but you can no longer sleep.


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                            • #15
                              IIRC, the devs made clear that base stats should not go above 5. The math curves simply melt past a certain point. If Chejop is rocking a natural 17 dice for this MA stuff, it's not plausible that he can be defeated by 'normal' Solars, and that outcome is explicitly desirable. Part of the point of Ex3 was to make sure no Exalt was effectively unstoppable. That restrains some of the more mind-bending scenarios and absurdities the setting otherwise produces.

                              High Essence Exalts can have unique, powerful high-Essence charms, but their base pools are the same as everyone else. Chejop is thus a great boss fight, just not an insurmountable one.

                              Obviously a T. Rex has more muscle mass than an Exalt, so it doesn't make sense to restrict them in the same way. They still get crushed by a moderately combat-capable Exalt, though.

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