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When are we going to get answers on Traits past 5

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  • #16
    For humans, no.

    Due to our size and shape, there is an effective maximum that we can reach with regards to strength, speed, so on and so forth.

    You could theoretically be strong enough to bench-press a long-haul truck, but you will almost certainly not have the leverage needed to pick the thing up. You could theoretically be fast enough to outrun a speeding Ferrari, but your muscles couldn't work fast enough in order to build up enough velocity, or, alternatively. So on and so forth.

    In order to break that barrier, you either need to:

    1) change your shape/size, which is why large animals tend to be "stronger" than humans and in game-terms, why things like T.Rexes have such high strength ratings.
    2) apply magic to become explicitly superhuman, aka use Charms.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Totentanz View Post
      IIRC, the devs made clear that base stats should not go above 5. The math curves simply melt past a certain point. If Chejop is rocking a natural 17 dice for this MA stuff, it's not plausible that he can be defeated by 'normal' Solars, and that outcome is explicitly desirable. Part of the point of Ex3 was to make sure no Exalt was effectively unstoppable. That restrains some of the more mind-bending scenarios and absurdities the setting otherwise produces.
      This was one of the reasons I was surprised to see 3rd edition allowed Essence to go past 5 for Exalted, because it will cause issues with the math curves for any Exalt whose Excellency limit is determined by their Permanent Essence.

      For example, if a 5 is the maximum Attributes and Abilities can go, then the maximum a Solar can add to a dice pool with an Excellency is 10.

      But the limit on a Liminal's Excellency pool is equal to their Attribute plus Permanent Essence. If they had an Attribute of 5 and a Permanent Essence of 6, this would let them increase their pool by 11 dice, giving him a higher Excellency cap than a Solar has.

      There are ways around this - maybe any Exalt whose Excellency cap is determined by their Permanent Essence, will have a maximum Permanent Essence cap of 5, but it still struck me as a bit surprising.

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      • #18
        I've heard that First Edition Lunars didn't have a very hard time getting higher dice pools than Solars.

        ​The question is, is it likely that a Liminal with a slightly higher dice cap will also have dice tricks to further reap success out of that dice pool?


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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        • #19
          Yeah, I suspect that by essence 6-10 dice caps will not be an issue.

          Non-charm dice are a thing, for one.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            I've heard that First Edition Lunars didn't have a very hard time getting higher dice pools than Solars.

            Generally only if they gamed DBT, and gamed it hard.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Elfive View Post
              I think the current idea is that if an exalt has any capacities above that of a mortal, they're using a charm.

              Super strength? Charm. Divine appearance? Charm.

              Essence 6+ might let them go around with permanently 6+ stuff, but if they do, it'll be because of a charm.
              But thats just not true. Not only do they have much faster healing times (unless that changed, I cant remember), but theyre also much less susceptable to mundane disease and bleeding out (again, if that didnt change. Im fuzzy on if those remain true in 3e).

              Again., im only playing the devils advocate here, but the idea that Exalts could break the mortal cap and exceed base mortal limits without charms, just as a facet of getting superjuiced,isnt unreasonable or unthinkable.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Arteliex View Post

                But thats just not true. Not only do they have much faster healing times (unless that changed, I cant remember), but theyre also much less susceptable to mundane disease and bleeding out (again, if that didnt change. Im fuzzy on if those remain true in 3e).

                Again., im only playing the devils advocate here, but the idea that Exalts could break the mortal cap and exceed base mortal limits without charms, just as a facet of getting superjuiced,isnt unreasonable or unthinkable.
                For Solar Charms at least, there's an explicit note in EX3 that they can't make a character casually superhuman. So while you might heal faster and more completely and get to ignore most of the world's muck and grime, you don't get any more than that.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                  I've heard that First Edition Lunars didn't have a very hard time getting higher dice pools than Solars.
                  Not only higher dice pools, but higher persistent dice pools as well. With a minmaxed DBT they tended to completely break the game over their knee. Think of a pre-errata 2nd edition Tyrant Lizard Lunar, but far more powerful and dangerous.

                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                  The question is, is it likely that a Liminal with a slightly higher dice cap will also have dice tricks to further reap success out of that dice pool?


                  The issue with the Liminal dice cap is that it doesn't exceed the Solar/Lunar dice cap until Essence 6, and in fact is generally going to be lower for most of the game until they reach Essence 5. I just can't see the authors designing the core Liminal Charmset around what will happen to them after they hit Essence 6+, especially when one of the stated goals of 3rd edition was to move the game back from making it feel like Essence 6+ was an important part of the gameplay experience.

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                  • #24
                    Well, yeah, I mean there are a few base powers that come with the Exalted condition, but you get those from the start. After that it's all charms or sorcery or whatever.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                      I just can't see the authors designing the core Liminal Charmset around what will happen to them after they hit Essence 6+, especially when one of the stated goals of 3rd edition was to move the game back from making it feel like Essence 6+ was an important part of the gameplay experience.
                      Then why bring it up?!


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #26
                        It's not going to come up in the books, that's for sure.

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                        • #27
                          Oh wait, no, I see what was happening now; Anubis' response is predicated on the assumption that my bringing up the significance of the Solar Exalted having across the board superior dice efficiency is only something that really matters in comparisons to Liminal Exalted once one of them reaches the hypothetical stage of Essence in which their dice cap exceeds the Solar one.

                          ​I just didn't realise it at first because of how off-kilter it is.

                          ​So my response is, no, I'm sure Liminal Exalted won't be written to not have the same strength of things like dice tricks as Solars do to ensure that, when they reach Essence 6, they're not outshining Solars.

                          ​I'm sure that Liminals won't be written to have all of the strengths of Solars because they're not friggin' Solars.

                          ​That this would mean an eventual slightly higher dice cap doesn't really matter isn't so much the core premise as a natural emergent property of the fact that Solars are stronger than Liminals even if they can eventually add one or two more Charm dice to their pools.

                          {checks back}

                          ​There's also the matter of how the Liminal Excellency as written in the core book can only be used to add Attrbitue + Essence dice to their pools when their anima is revealed, which is an additional complication for them that Solars don't have to deal with.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                          • #28
                            There's also the point that the Charms as written for QCs are not necessarily going to be intact in that form when we see full PC writeups for those Exalted types. It's quite possible that they'll change significantly.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                              This was one of the reasons I was surprised to see 3rd edition allowed Essence to go past 5 for Exalted, because it will cause issues with the math curves for any Exalt whose Excellency limit is determined by their Permanent Essence.

                              For example, if a 5 is the maximum Attributes and Abilities can go, then the maximum a Solar can add to a dice pool with an Excellency is 10.

                              But the limit on a Liminal's Excellency pool is equal to their Attribute plus Permanent Essence. If they had an Attribute of 5 and a Permanent Essence of 6, this would let them increase their pool by 11 dice, giving him a higher Excellency cap than a Solar has.

                              There are ways around this - maybe any Exalt whose Excellency cap is determined by their Permanent Essence, will have a maximum Permanent Essence cap of 5, but it still struck me as a bit surprising.
                              Allowing Essence to go past 6 is not 100% a bad thing. Some PCs may want a higher Essence pool, and a higher Essence pool allows NPCs like Chejop to be more viable against a small Circle of Solars on his own (or with a small BG). It's when Elders rock passive pools 4 or more dice higher that opposition just isn't credible.

                              I think the Liminal dice cap is written with the assumption that the "penalty" for anima flare on their part is significant, and overall their dice tricks will be less generous.

                              It's also possible when Liminals finally roll around their Excellency will change, or carry a rider like you suggested.

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                              • #30
                                Back in 2e days, somebody calculated how many successes different types of Exalted can throw at a problem. It turned out that both Sidereals and Alchemicals had the potential to outdo Solars when it came to generating a big pile of successes, and I'm not sure if Lunars didn't beat them as well.

                                Surprising as this revelation was, it changed nothing on the power ladder, because what the Solars lacked in raw number of successes, they more than made up with their overall superior Charms.

                                Because of that, and bearing in mind milking more successes out of your dice pool is something of a new schtick for Solars in 3e, I wouldn't be worried in the slightest about them potentially losing out to Liminals (or anyone else) when it comes to their dice cap past E5.

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