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  • Lunar Knacks

    In your opinion, should Knacks be their own thing in 3e, or should they just be Lunar Charms without the Eclipse-OK keyword?

    Some things to consider:
    Does knowing a Knack but not a Charm in an Attribute grant that Attribute's Excellency?
    Does a Bridge-like keyword need to be made to keep the mutli-Attribute trees that Knacks typically have straight?


    Exalted Fanfiction on AO3 that I have authored. A Lunar oral history, a Solar buddy-fiction, and other story hooks.

  • #2
    Just wanted to point out that as far as I'm aware, the Eclipse Power no longer allows people to take Charms from other Exalted.

    I think Knacks could still be there own thing. Honestly, I'm not sure the distinction matters terribly much? But maybe having them be their own thing makes it a little easier to grasp?

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    • #3
      Exalted charms aren't going to have the Eclipse keyword in 3e regardless, so the point is a bit moot. There's no particular reason why they need to be a thing that's denoted as different from charms.

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      • #4
        I doubt that other Exalted Charms will be on the docket for the Eclipse Keyword because the description of it in EX3 mentioned spirits, raksha, and other weird beings, but not other Exalted. Also, that kind of Charmshare was one of the more prominent albatrosses around the neck of prior editions. Accordingly, I doubt that Knacks will exist, seeing as how they're a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and caused a huge problem of their own (Silver Solar Charms).

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        • #5
          So, given Knacks' conceptual differentiation as 'Tricks that enhance shapeshifting that Eclipses don't get' is moot, is there anything we'll miss about merging Lunar Charms and Knacks into just 'Lunar Charms'?


          Exalted Fanfiction on AO3 that I have authored. A Lunar oral history, a Solar buddy-fiction, and other story hooks.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tikor View Post
            So, given Knacks' conceptual differentiation as 'Tricks that enhance shapeshifting that Eclipses don't get' is moot, is there anything we'll miss about merging Lunar Charms and Knacks into just 'Lunar Charms'?
            I doubt it. In fact, your phrasing is curious, because I'd rate the reunification of Charm and Knack space as an unequivocal step or sixty up.

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            • #7
              I don't really see any point in them being different things.


              Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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              • #8
                Thanks, everyone, for the feedback.

                Saur Ops Specialist, I am also in favor of Knacks being obsolete as a category in 3e (and having lots of Shapeshift-enhancing Charms) given what I know from the 3e Core. My phrasing was looking for something I might have missed that might alter that opinion before charging forward with some homebrew for the 3e Lunar player at my table. An invitation for a fellow forumite to play devil's advocate.


                Exalted Fanfiction on AO3 that I have authored. A Lunar oral history, a Solar buddy-fiction, and other story hooks.

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                • #9
                  I admit, personally I'm a bit torn.

                  Back in 1st edition, there were two problems with Shapeshifting as Charms. First, was the aforementioned Eclipse Charm share (which is not longer an issue in 3rd edition). But the other problem was with shapeshifting Charms being Charms and therefore having Attribute pre-requisites, favored/non-favored costs and being in Charm trees.

                  So let's say shapeshifting Knacks are now Charms in 3rd edition and then tape a hypothetical Charm that lets you grow a bunch of tentacles to smack someone with. Which Attribute would that fall under? If it requires 3 or 4 Strength and has two or three pre-requisites, this might put it out of reach of someone who was going for more of a lithe character and didn't want to invest that heavily in Strength (or deal with non-favored/non-caste exp costs).

                  We could have several different tentacle Charms (a Strength one that lets you grapple with your tentacles, a Dexterity one that lets you smack people with tentacles, a Stamina one that lets you make poisoned tentacles to stab people with a Perception one that allows you to extend your ability to perceive things and maybe a few others in other Attributes). If you want to focus on using tentacles, you're either going to have to decide on one or two tentacle Charms to get, or you're going to have to try to dig through a ton of different Charm trees to pick them all up.

                  1st edition had the worst of all worlds, with Eclipse Charm Share and Multiple-Attribute Charm clouds (nothing like having a Dexterity Charm, locked behind a Manipulation Charm which was itself locked behind a Charisma Charm).

                  And while 2nd edition did some dumb stuff and there were issues with the basic concept of Knacks, at the way Knacks made various Shapeshifting techniques "universal" and not locked behind Attribute requirements was a very nice step up from where we were in 1st edition.

                  Of course, all of this depends on how heavily "shapeshifter" is going to still be a Lunar thing in 3rd edition. From what the Dev's have said, they don't want to define Lunars as "The Shapeshifting Exalted" so it's very possible that making Shapeshifting harder to do and locking much of it behind more onerous requirements is, in fact, the intent of 3rd edition. It's way too early to say.

                  Still, I guess ultimately I'm a bit weary of the idea of simply getting rid of the idea of Knacks, without either making it so that Shapeshifting is no longer being the core Lunar concept (which I would be fine with) or without coming up with another way to allow players to easily access Lunar shapeshifting and not feel overly punished by Attribute prereqs and non-favored costs.

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                  • #10
                    I'm trying to think of a way to articulate why I find that whole line of reasoning to be odd...

                    ​I think that conception of how Lunar Charms would work, with the specifically defined manifestations, is going to be off.

                    ​I think the notion that not having tentacle attacks equates to being less good at shapeshifting is not the right approach.

                    ​When it comes to Knacks... what do people still emphatically want out of shapeshifting that is not covered by the default capacity to turn into an animal after having hunted it?


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      I think the notion that not having tentacle attacks equates to being less good at shapeshifting is not the right approach.

                      ​When it comes to Knacks... what do people still emphatically want out of shapeshifting that is not covered by the default capacity to turn into an animal after having hunted it?
                      Well, if you wanted to play a squid-themed dude, you might want to be able to grow some tentacles. Likewise if you wanted to play a tortoise-themed dude, maybe you'd want to be able to grow a thick shell.

                      Some people might be happy if the extent of their shapeshifting were largely limited to only being able to turn into animals,but personally I'd like it to be a bit more flexible than that. I know I'd be rather unhappy if Lunars didn't have Charms of other powers to let them modify their bodies, growing thick shells, giving themselves really sharp teeth to bite with, being able to cover their body in razor sharp quills, etc.

                      Again though, there's not really any telling what the dev's are planning, so it's possible that Lunars will be primarily restricted from shapechanging, other than turning into something they killed.

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                      • #12
                        I'd point out that knacks were gated by Attributes. You needed, for example, Dex 5 to be able to shapeshift simultaneously, Int 4 to turn into a demon, Per 4 to turn into a tree, Wits 3 to learn Hybrid Body Rearrangement, etc.

                        So, besides the XP cost and non-Eclipse-okay, the only difference was that a)you needed a bunch of different attributes to get up the trees, and b)you didn't have to worry about combos (although after 2.5 that didn't matter anyway).

                        So, tbh, I think in 3rd ed it really makes no difference. It's just a matter of whether the knacks will be integrated into the charm trees or not. And honestly, if they're not... it still doesn't really matter.


                        "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                          I admit, personally I'm a bit torn.

                          Back in 1st edition, there were two problems with Shapeshifting as Charms. First, was the aforementioned Eclipse Charm share (which is not longer an issue in 3rd edition). But the other problem was with shapeshifting Charms being Charms and therefore having Attribute pre-requisites, favored/non-favored costs and being in Charm trees.

                          So let's say shapeshifting Knacks are now Charms in 3rd edition and then tape a hypothetical Charm that lets you grow a bunch of tentacles to smack someone with. Which Attribute would that fall under? If it requires 3 or 4 Strength and has two or three pre-requisites, this might put it out of reach of someone who was going for more of a lithe character and didn't want to invest that heavily in Strength (or deal with non-favored/non-caste exp costs).
                          This problem you mean i can certainly see, but last time i checked, knacks most certainly had attribute requirements just as bad as the lunar charms in general - and while one did not have to deal with non-favored/non-caste exp costs, it was simply because knacks had their own intermediary exp cost baked in, so with all honesty, did the knacks "solve" any of these issues speak of how?

                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          ​When it comes to Knacks... what do people still emphatically want out of shapeshifting that is not covered by the default capacity to turn into an animal after having hunted it?
                          That's easy to answer - shapeshifting, not shapestealing/hunting, the capacity to customize or variate from one's library of forms, refinements, faster transformations with the capacity to change between forms in the middle of combat or partial transformations like forming just a clawed or tentacled arm and so on. While the mechanic details were not exactly optimal, 2e's knack trees did cover the conceptual terrain of "extras one might want out of shapeshifting" quite well i guess.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            ​When it comes to Knacks... what do people still emphatically want out of shapeshifting that is not covered by the default capacity to turn into an animal after having hunted it?
                            I want the ability to improve on stolen forms, not just copy them. After all, a form's last owner had all of its traits and capabilities, and that didn't save them from you!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thesaurasaurus View Post

                              I want the ability to improve on stolen forms, not just copy them. After all, a form's last owner had all of its traits and capabilities, and that didn't save them from you!
                              That might not be the point, though. Wearing a stolen skin isn't about self-improvement or hulking out, necessarily, but rather more about slipping into another face and fooling others into accepting what they see. At least, for human forms. Beast forms come with some extra options, per the note on shapeshifting in the antagonists chapter, and the same information reveals that Lunars can also get latent and magical capabilities for use with animal forms. They would still maintain some use in tricking others, though.

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