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  • #31
    Originally posted by ParanoiaCombo View Post
    It's happened plenty during EX3 development already.
    Originally posted by kongurous View Post
    Indeed. We can't even really say who the writers on the Lunars book will be.
    Prime prime prime; you Amethysts are so cliquey.


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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    • #32
      Knacks 'worked' with the somewhat antagonistic relationship 2e Lunars had with their own shapeshifting. It was this walled off part of their powers that encouraged opportunistic murder and cannibalism that you could in the broadest sense reject the trappings of 1e Lunars like Deadly Beastman Transformation without feeling too punished.

      It all fell down when you tried to compare Lunar raw attribute power to Solar ability power because it was weaker and not different enough. But could have been enjoyable as a self-contained thing.


      Onyx Path Forums Moderator

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
        I recall when Irked was doing his more direct conversion of the Lunar Charms and stuff from 2e, he had a very sensible way of doing Hybrid Body Rearrangement in Third Edition, which was that it could grant something which was derived from one of the forms you actually possess rather than just pulling them from nothing. So if you have a form that's a Strix, using that to get Wings, that sort of thing.
        But that is exactly how I remember HBA working. It was limited to your Heart's Blood library of forms.

        Lunars can already change shapes to gain powerful new advantages without committing motes. A Lunar doesn't need a Charm to fly the way all of the other Exalted do.

        A Lunar who turns into a bird should need a Charm to equip that bird with unbirdlike features, or else hunt a dragon.

        HBA is a "toolbox" Charm in a game where Charms are supposed to be singular tools.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Lioness View Post
          Knacks 'worked' with the somewhat antagonistic relationship 2e Lunars had with their own shapeshifting. It was this walled off part of their powers that encouraged opportunistic murder and cannibalism that you could in the broadest sense reject the trappings of 1e Lunars like Deadly Beastman Transformation without feeling too punished.

          It all fell down when you tried to compare Lunar raw attribute power to Solar ability power because it was weaker and not different enough. But could have been enjoyable as a self-contained thing.
          Yeah. If Knacks return, I want it to be as a Charm Keyword indicating that "this power influences your shapeshifting abilities and as such may be subject to special rules described under the Keyword's heading" rather than a Chinese window between "shapeshifting magic" and "everything else".

          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          HBA is a "toolbox" Charm in a game where Charms are supposed to be singular tools.
          Some Charms are significantly-stronger or more-versatile than others, or offer mechanical grab-bags of powers united by a common theme! I agree that HBR maybe shouldn't be quite so open-ended - it could have, say, an Essence-based cap on the number of shapes whose abilities you can merge at any given time. That said, I'm not sure how much weight any given form is meant to have in a Lunar's repertoire. Does the point investment end once you're able to take a certain class of shapes, and then you're meant to go around collecting new skins like they're...well, new 'skins' (purely-cosmetic vanity items)? Or are some shapes going to carry more impact than others - you learn to turn into a tiger or a roc or a siaka, and then you can invest more Lunar XP (or whatever) in unlocking new powers or customizing those shapes to make them more yours, like a Solar getting Evocations for an Artifact?
          Last edited by Thesaurasaurus; 03-21-2017, 01:38 PM. Reason: Responded to Sunder the Gold as well.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post



            Prime prime prime; you Amethysts are so cliquey.
            wh
            i



            what


            A Green Sun Destrier

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Thesaurasaurus View Post
              Yeah. If Knacks return, I want it to be as a Charm Keyword indicating that "this power influences your shapeshifting abilities and as such may be subject to special rules described under the Keyword's heading"
              Why would you need a keyword to tell you that? You can read the Charm's text to find that paragraph's special restrictions.


              Some Charms are significantly-stronger or more-versatile than others, or offer mechanical grab-bags of powers united by a common theme!
              Can you point me to one in the Third Edition Solar Charmset?

              Can you further explain why a Lunar should be able to fiddle about with a Mutation like Natural Armor when they can learn a Charm like Armor-Forming Technique? Keeping in mind that they always have the option of shapeshifting into an appropriate animal without knowing a single Charm?

              Hybrid Body Rearrangement was a case of a Knack competing with the Lunar Charmset for conceptual space. If Lunar Charms can provide personal-transformations without Knacks stealing from their limited concept space, then there's no need for HBA.



              Originally posted by kongurous View Post
              wh
              i



              what
              Even if you get the reference, the joke makes no sense.


              Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

              My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Why would you need a keyword to tell you that? You can read the Charm's text to find that paragraph's special restrictions.
                Keywords are useful for maintaining unified rulesets and saving space, which both reduces wordcount and makes it easier to look up rules interactions. For instance, the default is that you can only wear one shape at a time, so if you're getting, say, bonuses to damage and mobility from being a horse with iron-shod hooves and you use another keyworded Charm that improves grapples by turning your forelimbs into barbed tentacles, then it's easy to tell that the Charm overwrites the extra damage/mobility. If a Charm grants you a bonus conditional upon having "shapeshifted" and Claws of the Silver Moon has that keyword, then you know that using Claws of the Silver Moon will trigger that bonus. And so on.

                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Can you point me to one in the Third Edition Solar Charmset?
                Off the top of my head, Gloaming Eye Understanding lets you pick up a different assortment of Eclipse-keyworded Spirit Charms every time you activate it. Excellent Strike is both broad and very powerful, because if you've invested in Melee Charms then you are probably going to be making a lot of attacks with the Melee Ability. Regular attacks, granted attacks from One Weapon Two Blows or Peony Blossom Attack, counterattacks, clash attacks, ranged attacks that happen to use the Melee Ability such as Iron Raptor Attack - not that it's quite as versatile as 2.5 HBR, but similar in that if you will get a LOT of mileage out of a single purchase. Again, I don't think a hypothetical Ex3 counterpart should let you manifest any mutation you want on the fly, but that's more because the Mutation rules in 2E werea hot mess, and Supernatural Merits in Ex3 seem much more restrained at first glance.

                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Can you further explain why a Lunar should be able to fiddle about with a Mutation like Natural Armor when they can learn a Charm like Armor-Forming Technique? Keeping in mind that they always have the option of shapeshifting into an appropriate animal without knowing a single Charm?

                Hybrid Body Rearrangement was a case of a Knack competing with the Lunar Charmset for conceptual space. If Lunar Charms can provide personal-transformations without Knacks stealing from their limited concept space, then there's no need for HBA.
                As long as we're being hypothetical here, I'd limit the number of shapes you can mix-and-match abilities from based on your Permanent Essence score and make its benefits somewhat understated, yet persistent in comparison to specialized charms - Hybrid Body Rearrangement to grant yourself Natural Armor 4 from rhinoceros hide requires you to commit those motes long-term and competes with other effects that would occupy the same "equip slot", such as chameleon skin for camouflage or snake-like smoothness to help wriggle out of grapples, whereas Armor-Forming Technique is quick, works in any shape, and can provide a hell of a lot more than +4 Soak.

                That said, there's no need for Hybrid Body Rearrangement to exist as its own specific thing, but it can be implemented such that it doesn't completely supersede more-dedicated Charms.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Thesaurasaurus View Post
                  Keywords are useful for maintaining unified rulesets and saving space, which both reduces wordcount and makes it easier to look up rules interactions.
                  I see that I misunderstood what you meant by "heading". You meant a single space in a Keyword glossary where the special rule denoted by the Keyword is explained ONCE.

                  As opposed to a Keyword that means nothing more than "there's extra rules at the end of this Charm which are completely different from the extra rules at the end of other Charms with this keyword".


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post




                    Even if you get the reference, the joke makes no sense.
                    ​ParanoiaCombo and kongurous were both playtesters.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                    • #40
                      Making Lunar shapeshifting something distinct from their charmset seems to be all-downside to me. Imagine if Dragon-Blooded had a special set of non-charm powers called Elementalisms where all their elemental abilities would be - what would their actual charmset look like?

                      I still like the idea of a Lunar charmset structured like a tree of life, with charms developing alongside certain animal forms. However, this would not only require a fundamental restructuring of the charmset, and perhaps even the castes, it would also clash with the Attribute-based structure (some Attribute lack clear animal associations, and even for the others you would force Lunars to eg. focus on being a bear if they wanted stamina and strength.) So it's really something that would require dynamiting Lunars and rebuilding them entirely from the ground up, which would probably be going too far.

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                      • #41
                        There's a certain kind of Dragonblooded fan who'd be *all over* the Dragonblooded having a split between direct elemental magic ("Elementalism" / "Element bending") and their Charms where elemental essence enhances skills. (I'm not such a fan, yet they're out there!).

                        Separate systems for Exalt type powers are not axiomatically bad - Astrology is split off from Sidereal Charms after all. (Now, I have a feeling some folk will respond to this with "But Black Dynamite, Astrology *is* bad!", to which I would say the bad things about it are *contingently* bad, not *necessarily* bad).

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                          There's a certain kind of Dragonblooded fan who'd be *all over* the Dragonblooded having a split between direct elemental magic ("Elementalism" / "Element bending") and their Charms where elemental essence enhances skills. (I'm not such a fan, yet they're out there!).

                          Separate systems for Exalt type powers are not axiomatically bad - Astrology is split off from Sidereal Charms after all. (Now, I have a feeling some folk will respond to this with "But Black Dynamite, Astrology *is* bad!", to which I would say the bad things about it are *contingently* bad, not *necessarily* bad).
                          Astrology is a Sidereal-only form of ritual magic and hopping into other identities. Their Charms, however, lean on the same basic source for thematics; what we're talking about would be the equivalent of removing the fate stuff from their Charms entirely, leaving them as Rainbow Solars with mediocre optional subsystems for fate stuff.

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                          • #43
                            Oh right, Well, Luna has plenty thematics to make up an Attribute based Charm set even if it were chosen to split all shapeshifting into a separate subsystem (which like the Sorcery, Astrology, etc. systems took advantage of bespoke mechanics). She's a fairly distinctive goddess, with more going on than just shapeshifting. (As much as a I don't love the TAW project for its specific personality, it shows this.).

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                            • #44
                              Lunars having a set of unique non-attribute charms is not inherently a problem. Spells, Evocations, and martial arts are generally options for all exalts and exist beyond their normal lists, and solars have access to the top tier of all of the above, so there's no conceptual problem with the format. From the sounds of it (haven't actually played lunars, or pre-3 exalted period) the main complaints seem to be about either Hybridization nuttiness, or wonkey charm trees.

                              Am I getting this anywhere near right?

                              If so then the first solution that pops into my head is to have Knacks be separate from the attribute charms, but focused only around shapeshifting implementation: I.e. they help you expand what forms you can acquire, how you can get them, how closely you can mimic stuff, speed of shapeshifting (if that's an issue), staying in a shape despite adverse conditions (getting smacked, anima shining due to essence use), maybe even the more exotic stuff like turning into a swarm of critters.

                              Then you'd have regular attribute charms that cover the specific mutations like growing a shell specifically to grow a shell rather than turning into something with a shell. These would work in any form, including baseline, but would not have charm requirements that were not also these specific mutation charms, although some may require a certain number of mutation charms in addition to the essence and attribute requirements. You may even offer the option to manifest the charms in a subtle manner, such that you don't appear to be shapeshifting outside whatever form you're currently in. Possibly as an upgrade for reaching higher essence and attribute ratings?

                              Of course that's just how I'd approach it.

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                              • #45
                                That's basically how it worked in 2e.
                                Though actually knacks were attribute-based.
                                Which is kind of why you wonder what the point of them being seperate is.


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