Infernals - To Rule in Hell (complete edition)

[Lanaya]

Link

Some may remember this from a while back, it's now in a fully playable first draft state, with a total of 415 Infernal charms. It uses an ability-based charmset inspired by but not directly derived from the five Reclamation Yozis. There's still a fair amount that needs to be added, with some abilities and Shintais being seriously anemic compared to others, but there's enough to play a game with.

[ElfSpeaker]

This looks pretty awesome! Thanks for putting in the effort.

[Epee102]

Any ideas of what to do with/for anima abilities?

[Lanaya]

Any ideas of what to do with/for anima abilities?

Shintais ate them for the most part. I'd like to add some small, flavourful anima abilities at some point if I can come up with good ones, but they'd very much be minor quirks that wouldn't change how your character plays very much. As a temporary kludge you could take a single anima ability from the corresponding Solar caste (I'd suggest diplomatic immunity for Fiends because oathbinding is disproportionately powerful, but it won't break anything either way).

[Senara]

Oh hey I remember this. I unfortunately got too busy for a thorough read last time but I'm very hopeful to get a chance to give this a proper once-over, I remember seeing some good/cool stuff in there

[Beans]

This is pretty interesting! I'm actually kludging the base Solar google sheet I use to work for this (mostly it involves renaming things and making things green).
I definitely think that listing each Charm's associated Shintai in the Charm writeup is a good idea, if only to remove the need to flip back and forth between sections.

Flicking through the charms, they seem nicely concise and flavorful---I'm not even done with Archery but I really like how some basically reward you for being a big bully.

[HighPriest]

I'm torn. On the one hand, a workable Infernals fansplat! I'd bet significant money that there won't ever be another official Infernals book published, so having an option to use this for either PCs or villains is a big positive.

On the other hand, stripping out the Yozi based Charmsets for an ability base makes Infernals lose a lot of their flavor. They're a lot closer to lime flavored Solars than they were in 2E. I'm aware that this is the current plan for the official Infernals as well, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Still, from my somewhat informed opinion (I still don't have a huge experience base with 3E), it does look like a good Charmset and it's obvious that a lot a lot a lot of work went into it, so great job getting a finalized thing out!

[Epee102]

So a couple really far off questions. As in, it's cool you don't have an answer, but I'm curious (bc I love this homebrew and am using it for some future villians the Circle will encounter):
Is Infernal Lore going to ever delve into the sort of catclysm stuff Solar Lore does? Like Dogstar Shrike or Wyld Shaping?
Does the Survival charm that let's me wrestle a familar into being mine work on Demons?
Do Infernals get Mastery Effects?
Are you planning on custom merits for Infernals?

[Lanaya]

Is Infernal Lore going to ever delve into the sort of catclysm stuff Solar Lore does? Like Dogstar Shrike or Wyld Shaping?

Maybe, but only if I can come up with an interesting and clearly differentiated direction to take it in (or if someone else does, I'm always happy to take charm suggestions). Shrike in particular is on my list of iconic/awesome Solar charms that would make for excellent and thematically appropriate Infernal charms but which I'm deliberately not giving Infernals a version of because I prefer them to remain Solar charms. I could justify looting pretty much every cool thing Solars get for Infernals and giving them Infernal charms on top of that, but that's not a direction I'm a fan of. That said, it's an aggregate thing; there's no one Solar charm that cannot be ported without causing damage to the definition of Solars and Infernals, so if you want to give equivalents to your villains that'd be perfectly reasonable.

Does the Survival charm that let's me wrestle a familar into being mine work on Demons?

It certainly should and I've added that in, though they won't benefit at all from a lot of the later familiar-boosting charms. I might write up a mini-tree specifically for demon familiars later, or add on alternate effects to the charms that don't benefit them.

Do Infernals get Mastery Effects?

They do.

Are you planning on custom merits for Infernals?

I'm not opposed to it, but I also don't see any of the backgrounds in MoEP: Infernals as needing to be ported over. Demonic familiars are just demonic familiars, savant and unwoven coadjutor are easily modelled by taking appropriate dots and specialties, spies is just contacts and past life is... interesting but something I'd prefer as taking appropriate dots and specialties and roleplaying the rest in whatever ways seem appropriate to your character.

[Beans]

How much would you say your Infernal model leans (or doesn't lean) toward the Infernal preview thematically, with the whole "GSPs are reflections of First Age Solars at their most vice-steeped and excess-driven" thing they have goin' on? I've been sort of looking toward that and perhaps toward some aspects of 2.5e Infernals in that both my Infernal characters' concepts involve their lives going down the shitter and them basically saying "this can't be happening to me, it's not fair," and the Yozis latching onto that despair and frustration to say "Yeah, you're owed so much better... how about we give you the power to take what life owes you?"
Admittedly I'm just shuffling this together after seeing this homebrew yesterday morning, so I could be way off the mark (if there is indeed a mark for me to be off of).

[Lanaya]

How much would you say your Infernal model leans (or doesn't lean) toward the Infernal preview thematically, with the whole "GSPs are reflections of First Age Solars at their most vice-steeped and excess-driven" thing they have goin' on?

I really like that concept, but it's not particularly represented in the charmset. Which certainly isn't to say that you can't do it, just that the rules won't be guiding you in that direction. The character concepts you mentioned do sound pretty much exactly like the kinds of Infernals I'd be making though.

[Lanaya]

Made some minor fixes, including adding certain dodge and shintai-boosting charms that had disappeared at some point, and as some had requested I've added the Shintai associated with each Shintai charm on its requirements line. I also split everything into separate docs by ability, since the megadoc was getting too laggy to manage.

[Epee102]

Might I suggest an infernal Occult charm (under Ceclenye maybe? OR maybe it'd be survival?) that allows for the creation of a custom demon? I think 2e infernals could do this, and demon's are different enough from elementals/invited Raksha to seperate it from the Solar charm.

[Senara]

So I like the quality and direction overall- not what I would have done but certainly better than I could have managed, and I always love seeing an alternate take.

My only quibble, from what I'm seeing here, is that due to the singular focus on a given Yozi for a given Ability, certain pieces appear to be missing- for instance, any mention of Feats of Strength in athletics, even though being massively strong could be a very deeply appropriate thing for a mighty Malfean type or what have you.

[Lanaya]

Might I suggest an infernal Occult charm (under Ceclenye maybe? OR maybe it'd be survival?) that allows for the creation of a custom demon? I think 2e infernals could do this, and demon's are different enough from elementals/invited Raksha to seperate it from the Solar charm.

There kind of is in the form of the medicine charm that lets you make a creature of your choice, but to give some variety in your demon-spawning I added back the ability for From Desolation, Life to create a new breed of demon of your own design. Can't quite remember why I got rid of that effect in the first place, actually.

My only quibble, from what I'm seeing here, is that due to the singular focus on a given Yozi for a given Ability, certain pieces appear to be missing- for instance, any mention of Feats of Strength in athletics, even though being massively strong could be a very deeply appropriate thing for a mighty Malfean type or what have you.

Ah, yeah. I've been meaning to write a Malfean feat of strength tree for ages, but I've struggled with finding a way to do it that's not just the Solar tree with more sinister names, and unlike the Solar craft charms I copied over I feel like I should be able to come up with something compelling and unique. Just hasn't quite come to me yet.