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  • Originally posted by senresk View Post
    Speaking of the Debt of Borrowed Skin preview. I'm a bit unsure on how the "though he needn’t know of or consent to that aspect of the exchange" bit works.

    Does the Lunar just have to use read intentions and guess if he'd find it equal in value to his heart's blood?
    I'm also a bit confused in reading this, though it may just be because I'm not a native English speaker.
    How can someone agree to you performing a task in exchange for their shape, yet not be aware you are going to steal their shape?

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    • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
      The varying degrees of task are always defined by the perspective of the person undertaking them.


      Now you're thinking like a Changing Moon. >:3
      These answers seem contradictory.


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      • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
        The varying degrees of task are always defined by the perspective of the person undertaking them.


        Now you're thinking like a Changing Moon. >:3
        It might be worth specifying that it’s the Lunar who needs to think the task is Serious/Life Defining, because, if that’s how it works, then you can’t just hire some thugs to fake an attack on someone and step in to save them, because, no matter how the target feels, that’s a fairly trivial task for you and the charm won’t activate for trivial tasks. So the capability of the charm varies a bunch depending on who gets to define a “serious task” and not everyone reads the section on tasks in the core book very closely.


        ....

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        • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

          These answers seem contradictory.
          You just need to hire thugs who'll be a serious threat for you to fight off.


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          • Originally posted by wern212 View Post
            I'm also a bit confused in reading this, though it may just be because I'm not a native English speaker.
            How can someone agree to you performing a task in exchange for their shape, yet not be aware you are going to steal their shape?
            It's not that he needs to agree to it - instead, if he knew you'd take his shape as payment, then based on the circumstances, he'd agree it was worth it in that instant. The intent isn't to let you scam people out of their heart's blood on the cheap, but to let you do it without revealing your nature as a shapeshifter.


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            • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
              It's not that he needs to agree to it - instead, if he knew you'd take his shape as payment, then based on the circumstances, he'd agree it was worth it in that instant. The intent isn't to let you scam people out of their heart's blood on the cheap, but to let you do it without revealing your nature as a shapeshifter.
              How do you adjudicate this? This seems... nebulous to a point that it is mechanically difficult to represent. Do you mean to say that if his form was put into the scales with everything else in the agreement, the owner of the shape would not use Willpower to resist the Bargain in the ST's judgment? Perhaps I am overly sensitive on this issue, being a twin, but I can't imagine almost anyone willingly giving away their shape to someone else that they could then use without restriction.

              (To be clear, I am not looking for something outside of the ST's judgment, but more guidelines on the ST's adjudication.)

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              • In the interest of perhaps lending some greater clarity: for Debt of Borrowed Skin to work, you always have to complete a serious or life-defining task, and that's judged from your perspective. It's entirely kosher to malevolently place your client in need of someone who'll perform such a task for them — just because it's a Charisma Charm doesn't mean it isn't a Changing Moon trickster Charm — but you can't weasel your way out of the difficulty.


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                • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                  In the interest of perhaps lending some greater clarity: for Debt of Borrowed Skin to work, you always have to complete a serious or life-defining task, and that's judged from your perspective. It's entirely kosher to malevolently place your client in need of someone who'll perform such a task for them — just because it's a Charisma Charm doesn't mean it isn't a Changing Moon trickster Charm — but you can't weasel your way out of the difficulty.
                  So you can’t pull “i’ll get this precious object [that i stole] back for you”?


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                  • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                    It's not that he needs to agree to it - instead, if he knew you'd take his shape as payment, then based on the circumstances, he'd agree it was worth it in that instant. The intent isn't to let you scam people out of their heart's blood on the cheap, but to let you do it without revealing your nature as a shapeshifter.
                    Mhm, these answers clear up most of that.

                    However, I'm still confused on how the Lunar would know the target would agree it was worth it in that instant?

                    To put it simply: What do I roll to determine if a task is worth the target's shape? Read Intentions?
                    Last edited by senresk; 02-14-2019, 04:55 PM.


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                    • Originally posted by senresk View Post
                      Mhm, these answers clear up most of that.

                      However, I'm still confused on how the Lunar would know the target would agree it was worth it in that instant?

                      To put it simply: What do I roll to determine if a task is worth the target's shape? Read Intentions?
                      Reading intentions, profiling them, asking leading questions, or just observing them can all be used to get at that information, but there is no straightforward "find this out" roll. You don't need to know for sure in order to use the Charm, although you might feel silly if you were wrong.


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                      • Debt of Borrowed Skin specifies "a human's shape."

                        Is it going to be possible for Lunars to take the heart's blood of nonhuman sapient beings (Dragon Kings, demons, pineys, whatever)? If so, does Debt of Borrowed Skin still only ever work on humans ever, or would the "you can be a Dragon King now" Charm also expand Charms like DoBS (and others that give you alternate sacred hunt methods) to work on Dragon Kings etc.?

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                        • Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
                          Is it going to be possible for Lunars to take the heart's blood of nonhuman sapient beings (Dragon Kings, demons, pineys, whatever)?
                          No. 10char


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                          • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                            No. 10char
                            Pardon, is that a FLAT no period, or a No in regards to the Debt Face Charm, thus Dragon Kings are viable targets through a standard Sacred Hunt, or perhaps like in 2e where you needed a special Knack to perform a Sacred Hunt on a Demon?


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                            • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                              Pardon, is that a FLAT no period, or a No in regards to the Debt Face Charm, thus Dragon Kings are viable targets through a standard Sacred Hunt, or perhaps like in 2e where you needed a special Knack to perform a Sacred Hunt on a Demon?
                              It's a flat no.


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                              • Huh, I'm a little surprised other flesh and blood sapients aren't a valid target for a sacred hunt. Will the book have a guide on what is and isn't a valid target then?


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