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  • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Its creation is distinct from the event of appearing in Creation?
    Correct.

    So I can’t crush battle groups with effectively unblockable roars, but the damage of my roars is not penalized against other giants?
    Right.


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    • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
      Yep. 10char
      ​Could you give an example (besides the Salinan Working) of what a subtle alteration to the entire cosmos might entail, please?


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      • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

        ​Could you give an example (besides the Salinan Working) of what a subtle alteration to the entire cosmos might entail, please?
        The Salinian Working is the best example.

        Altering the cycle of reincarnation such that anyone with a positive Defining Tie towards you will carry over that Tie into their next incarnation is an example of an alteration to the entire universe that I think is subtle enough to qualify.

        Altering the cycle of reincarnation such that people actually reincarnate according to whether they were good or bad, based on your chosen system of morality, would not be subtle at all.


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        • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
          The Salinian Working is the best example.
          ​I know, but if it's the only example, then I have difficulty forming a baseline.

          Originally posted by Robert Vance
          Altering the cycle of reincarnation such that anyone with a positive Defining Tie towards you will carry over that Tie into their next incarnation is an example of an alteration to the entire universe that I think is subtle enough to qualify.

          Altering the cycle of reincarnation such that people actually reincarnate according to whether they were good or bad, based on your chosen system of morality, would not be subtle at all.
          That's helpful, thank you.

          ​I had a thought once on the idea of a sorcerer having made a speech intended to instil something in an army, and then using an Ambition 3 Solar working to make an arrangement that when an enemy nation deploys a force against him, it just happens to include everybody that was won over by the proselytizing. Do you think that works? Is it too narrow? Does it step on the toes of things that might manipulate Fate, and would it be a bad thing if it did?

          I keep wondering if Imperial Miracles from Jenna Moran's games are helpful for thinking about them.


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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          • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            ​I had a thought once on the idea of a sorcerer having made a speech intended to instil something in an army, and then using an Ambition 3 Solar working to make an arrangement that when an enemy nation deploys a force against him, it just happens to include everybody that was won over by the proselytizing. Do you think that works? Is it too narrow? Does it step on the toes of things that might manipulate Fate, and would it be a bad thing if it did?
            Assuming I'm understanding that correctly, that sort of causality-meddling doesn't really seem like the territory of sorcerous workings.

            I keep wondering if Imperial Miracles from Jenna Moran's games are helpful for thinking about them.
            They would be, but an Imperial Miracle can potentially be far more powerful than even the highest-end Solar Circle workings.


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            • What did th Salinan Working actually do in 3rd edition? Were there not the various possible initiations until Salina reshaped reality? Or did mortals not have the ability to initiate?
              Last edited by glamourweaver; 06-12-2018, 07:23 PM.


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              • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                What did th Salinan Working actually do in 3rd edition? Were there not the various possible initiations until Salina reshaped reality?
                I'm very curious about the Working myself - the old version doesn't really work with Sorcery now being an inborn train, I don't think?

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                • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                  Assuming I'm understanding that correctly, that sort of causality-meddling doesn't really seem like the territory of sorcerous workings.
                  ​I'm not sure if it's causality meddling, but that might just be semantics. I think I've described the scenario as accurately as I could, so if it doesn't really work for that kind of sorcery then fair enough...

                  But I just want to be sure, so I hope you'll bear with me.

                  When you call it causality meddling, would I be correct in assuming that you're seeing it in terms of designating a specific future for a certain group of people, or declaring a manner in which a certain scenario will resolve itself?

                  ​The way that I was seeing the way that such a thing could be a working would either take the form of creating a condition (which has no guarantee of happening) in which a certain person or category of people might meet with you again...

                  ​Or adding a detail to an independently created process that ensures that it includes an advantage for you...

                  ​Hmm, saying them like that, it actually does still feel too much like phrasing it in terms of designating an outcome, which feels appropriately off the table whether I call it causality-meddling or not.

                  Would you say that something like ensuring the coincidence of people that you've previously spoken to happening to be included in an army sent to oppose you (or similar Androcles' Lion scenarios) is something more suited for a lone Solar to achieve by means of prophetic Lore Charms?


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                  • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                    What did th Salinan Working actually do in 3rd edition? Were there not the various possible initiations until Salina reshaped reality? Or did mortals not have the ability to initiate?
                    I'm very curious about the Working myself - the old version doesn't really work with Sorcery now being an inborn train, I don't think?

                    When discussing the Salinan Working, it's necessary to distinguish between its First Edition and Second Edition presentations.

                    In First Edition, the Salinan Working was a vast undertaking to preserve sorcerous knowledge, encoding the lessons needed to initiate into each circle of sorcery and a vast library of spells into Creation itself, leaving signs and clues in the patterns of the natural world that guide aspirants to spirits geased with sharing that information to those who ask in the appropriate way. In this manner, a great deal of sorcerous knowledge survived the Usurpation.

                    In Second Edition, the Salinan Working, in addition to preserving sorcerous knowledge, also warped fate and causality such that any aspirant who desired to seek sorcery would inevitably come to encounter the five stations of initiation, and was but the first step to Salina's vision of making all circles of sorcery available to all sorcerers.


                    In Ex3, we're going with the First Edition presentation of the Salinan Working.


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                    • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      Would you say that something like ensuring the coincidence of people that you've previously spoken to happening to be included in an army sent to oppose you (or similar Androcles' Lion scenarios) is something more suited for a lone Solar to achieve by means of prophetic Lore Charms?
                      I don't think I could see it in Solar Lore. If I wanted to make it, what I'd probably do is have it be a Socialize Charm that works by way of an extradiegetic retcon—something like "I know a guy," where the Solar is such a well-traveled socialite that she finds herself encountering people she's spoken to before anywhere she goes.


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                      • I'm seeking clarification for Living Shadow Preparation.

                        Firstly, are the successes provide charm successes as per the general charm limitations on pp. 251? I'm pretty sure they should be.

                        Secondly, the charm text states "Banked successes can be reflexively applied to a single Larceny or Stealth action". Does this exhaust the entire bank of successses or only those required in the action, leaving the remainder for future uses -- one action at a time?

                        Thanks in advance.

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                        • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post

                          When discussing the Salinan Working, it's necessary to distinguish between its First Edition and Second Edition presentations.

                          In First Edition, the Salinan Working was a vast undertaking to preserve sorcerous knowledge, encoding the lessons needed to initiate into each circle of sorcery and a vast library of spells into Creation itself, leaving signs and clues in the patterns of the natural world that guide aspirants to spirits geased with sharing that information to those who ask in the appropriate way. In this manner, a great deal of sorcerous knowledge survived the Usurpation.

                          In Second Edition, the Salinan Working, in addition to preserving sorcerous knowledge, also warped fate and causality such that any aspirant who desired to seek sorcery would inevitably come to encounter the five stations of initiation, and was but the first step to Salina's vision of making all circles of sorcery available to all sorcerers.[/FONT]

                          In Ex3, we're going with the First Edition presentation of the Salinan Working.
                          I’m just trying to wrap my head around how that fits with the diverse nature of initiations in 3E.

                          Does the Salinan working serve to facilitate an aspirant finding some initiation if they follow the natural signs and geased spirits, without itself being directly linked to any given initiation?

                          Or does it more just serve to provide access to learning spells through the natural world for any Sorcerer to learn without an arcane text or Sorcerer mentor?
                          Last edited by glamourweaver; 06-12-2018, 10:29 PM.


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                          • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                            I’m just trying to wrap my head around how that fits with the diverse nature of initiations in 3E.

                            Does the Salinas working serves to facilitate an aspirant finding some initiation if they follow the natural signs and geased spirits, without itself being directly linked to any given initiation?

                            Or does it more just serve to provide access to learning spells through the natural world for any Sorcerer to learn without an arcane text or Sorcerer mentor?
                            It won't guide you to any random initiation. There may be a specific initiation it can provide to those who follow the signs, in addition to storing knowledge of spells.


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                            • Originally posted by KFinigan View Post
                              I'm seeking clarification for Living Shadow Preparation.

                              Firstly, are the successes provide charm successes as per the general charm limitations on pp. 251? I'm pretty sure they should be.
                              Yes.

                              There's a line of text in Miracles of the Solar Exalted which states that banked successes are always non-Charm, even if not otherwise specified. I strongly recommend disregarding that line for balance purposes.

                              Secondly, the charm text states "Banked successes can be reflexively applied to a single Larceny or Stealth action". Does this exhaust the entire bank of successses or only those required in the action, leaving the remainder for future uses -- one action at a time?
                              They all get added to one single action.


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                              • Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post


                                In Ex3, we're going with the First Edition presentation of the Salinan Working.
                                Good.

                                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                                I don't think I could see it in Solar Lore. If I wanted to make it, what I'd probably do is have it be a Socialize Charm that works by way of an extradiegetic retcon—something like "I know a guy," where the Solar is such a well-traveled socialite that she finds herself encountering people she's spoken to before anywhere she goes.
                                ​It may be that the thing that I have in mind is more appropriate to the Infernal that I was imagining it for anyway, and some application of their own powers rather than sorcery.

                                ​The specific scenario I had in mind was of an Infernal who walks into the midst of a warzone, and through the compelling power of his voice gets all of the combatants to briefly lay down arms and listen as he proselytizes, the memory of which is then buried deep in their minds.

                                ​The Infernal is banking on later provoking the nation that the troops belonged to deploying forces against him, and arranging it through sorcerous means that it just happens to consist of 90% of troops who were present when he spoke.

                                He would go out to meet the troops personally, revive the memory of his sermon for them, and with a bit of a push manage to win over their defection, thus ensuring that the enemy actually delivered a sizable army right to his doorstep.

                                (His first command, as a show of their newly pledged loyalty, is to engage in decimation)


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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