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  • Q about Tiger Form and Striking Fury Claws

    Hello All;

    Apologies in advance if this post is a little rambly, had a bit of a draining game session and long drive afterwards before I could settle in and get to writing this. My group of 3 and I finally managed to get their PC's to exalting, prior to tonight we had been playing as mortals coping with lower die pools and talking how the scenes we played through would've been different had their charms been used, its how we're breaking into the narrative style vs our Pathfinder indoctrinated system that spells everything out in very hard, explicit terms.

    Well tonight, despite a lot of studying and thinking I had the combat down, I got caught with my pants down on a few points. Case in point: One of the players is playing a Zenith who's a MA with Resistance Supernal and Tiger Style. He bought all the Tiger STyle charms his essence allowed, so Crimson Leaping Cat Technique, Striking Fury Claws and Tiger Form. What threw us collectively was Tiger Form and SFC's strength doubling effects, and largely we all agreed that we were probably obsessing on the language of the text as a result of our PF habits and more than likely, we're making it harder/more complicated than it really is

    So I've come to the collective to have some sense knocked into me on this (Note: I will bold the text that I feel is a keyword similar to how the manual does, since this is what is giving me problems with the correct interpretation). Also if this sparks any other related charms doing funky before/after maths feel free to mention them as well. On to the question:



    Tiger Form reads; " While Tiger Form is active, the martial artist may double up to (Strength) extra successes when calculating the raw damage of withering attacks.

    So pg 191 is where I got hung up on, as I understand the term raw damage step 2 of the 3 steps. I.E. Step 1: strike, Step 2: calculate raw damage, then step 3: subtract soak, roll what's left and successes scored on that die pool is your init 'damage'. In his case it consisted of Str + Wpn (i.e. "Light" since he's a MA) + Threshold Successes on his strike roll. To put some numbers to this, he has a
    • 5 Str/5 MA + "Light Weapon" (i.e the unarmed gets a weapon rating rule) of 7 damage giving him a base damage of 12d. plus
    • successes from his strike roll (or his To Hit if you prefer) minus
    • The soak of the opponent sitting at 11
    ​His first strike roll landed 9 successes after the parry value was deducted (several 10s, think he woke the neighbor's baby with his woop) so his die pool for his raw damage for step 2 was 5 (str) +7 (wpn) +9 (success) = 21 die.

    This is where we fell to discussion: He thought the bonus from Tiger Form adding str bonus damage kicked in after deducting soak and after the roll because of the word "successes". Or plugging the numbers into his interpretation, he thought
    • 12 base + 9 successes on strike = 21 die damage pool,
    • subtracts the 11 soak,
    • rolls 10 die, then
    • adds to the successes rolled another 5 (Str) successes to the end result Init damage.
    I.E. had he rolled 4 successes on the damage roll, it would add up to 9 Init "damage" since the charm says "extra successes".


    I interpreted the wording as saying it added to his raw damage before soak because the rules specifically says raw damage is calculated first and then soak is subtracted as illustrated on page 191 .

    We talked about it for a bit, both of us had enough doubt about our own interpretation to where we could see the other's view as having possible merit, as we were each stressing a different word in the sentence. For the sake of moving on, we decided to go with my interpretation for the evening, thus his 9 successes on his strike roll gave him an additional 5 die due to having a 5 str. THus his 21d became 26d raw and then the 11 soak reduced it to 15d to produce init damage with.

    Then he decided to activate SFC since that soak was a bit stiff. Round two of the rule debate.

    SFC reads "converts up to (Strength) extra successes that would be added to the raw damage of a withering attack to postsoak dice of damage instead. Against an enemy who took a disengage or withdraw action on his last turn, these post-soak dice are instead converted to successes added to the damage roll. Mastery: Extra successes converted by this Charm add both to the raw damage of the attack and to post-soak damage".

    With SFC powering his strike, it seems he gets to add his Str a 2nd and 3rd time, which made our EX noobish minds go "huh???".

    I.E.
    • Base damage of 12d + 9 Successes on the strike gives him 21 dice
    • Then Tiger Form takes his 21 dice to 26 die.
    • Then SFC (because of his Mastery) adds his Str again before soak to equal 31 die (because the charm specifically calls out add Str-D before soak).
    • Then he subtracts the 11 soak taking him down to 20 die,
    • And because he has Mastery for being a Solar, he adds the 5 strength back into the damage pool after soak for a net result of 25 die to roll for Init damage.
    So by my reckoning, he is leveraging his str 3x.
    • Tiger Form
    • SFC before soak
    • SFC after soak
    Is this interpretation correct or am I way off the rails here?

    Hope my post was reasonably clear, there's way too much blood in my caffeine stream at the moment
    Last edited by Seeker1728; 03-28-2017, 04:36 AM.


    Reality is a matter of perception, challenging one's own or that of others is not a crime, it is a service.

  • #2
    It adds extra successes on the attack roll as Raw withering damage. Raw is a system term that means "Dice of damage before soak". In this case, if you had Striking Fury Claws and used it with Tiger Form up, you would be adding your strength to damage four times if you rolled at least (Strength) extra succcesses. Once to determine base damage, added twice to raw damage, then, after soak is calculated and subtracted, added to damage again (this matters in the case that your attack's raw damage is less than soak and you do your minimum damage). Yeah, that's a lot of damage, but you're paying out the BUTT to do it.

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    • #3
      I'm not sure the Mastery for SFC is quite that good? I was always under the impression that it basically replaced the dice that you converted from RAW to post soak? So you still got your full Raw pool, rather than Raw pool - Strength (Still 3x addition of Strength with the Form)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
        I'm not sure the Mastery for SFC is quite that good? I was always under the impression that it basically replaced the dice that you converted from RAW to post soak? So you still got your full Raw pool, rather than Raw pool - Strength (Still 3x addition of Strength with the Form)
        Mastery: Extra successes converted by this Charm add both to the raw damage of the attack and to post-soak damage (or successes against fleeing enemies).
        It adds to both pretty explicitly. It IS very good, but in this case you get what you pay for, especially compared to Brawl's +onslaught to damage for 1m.

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        • #5
          basically the base charm works like this:

          Raw Damage - Str / Post Soak + Str

          Now the mastery changes what is in parentheses:

          Raw Damage -Str (+Str) / Post Soak Damage + Str

          Otherwise nothing in the charm says that the converted dice are replaced. Or perhaps I am being too harsh in my interpretation.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
            basically the base charm works like this:
            The Mastery allows you to add extra successes on attack an additional time to both raw damage and post-soak damage. At least, that's the reading I always had. I honestly don't think it's generally worth it even when it does add to both unless your enemy's defense has been severely penalized. You're paying SO MUCH.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by nihnoz View Post
              The Mastery allows you to add extra successes on attack an additional time to both raw damage and post-soak damage.
              The base effect allows you to add (Strength) extra successes on the attack roll to the attack's post-soak damage instead of adding them to raw damage which you'd normally do. The wording uses "convert" in the sense of "converting extra successes into post-soak damage dice from raw damage dice".

              The Mastery effect allows you to add converted dice to raw damage and post-soak damage. However, those dice are converted by the Charm's base effect - meaning they don't count for the purposes of determining raw damage any more. A clearer wording of the same effect would have been: "Instead of converting extra successes, SFC allows you to add (Str or the attack roll's threshold successes, whichever is lower) to post-soak damage".


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              • #8
                Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post

                The base effect allows you to add (Strength) extra successes on the attack roll to the attack's post-soak damage instead of adding them to raw damage which you'd normally do. The wording uses "convert" in the sense of "converting extra successes into post-soak damage dice from raw damage dice".

                The Mastery effect allows you to add converted dice to raw damage and post-soak damage. However, those dice are converted by the Charm's base effect - meaning they don't count for the purposes of determining raw damage any more. A clearer wording of the same effect would have been: "Instead of converting extra successes, SFC allows you to add (Str or the attack roll's threshold successes, whichever is lower) to post-soak damage".
                I see. this is correct.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post

                  The base effect allows you to add (Strength) extra successes on the attack roll to the attack's post-soak damage instead of adding them to raw damage which you'd normally do. The wording uses "convert" in the sense of "converting extra successes into post-soak damage dice from raw damage dice".

                  The Mastery effect allows you to add converted dice to raw damage and post-soak damage. However, those dice are converted by the Charm's base effect - meaning they don't count for the purposes of determining raw damage any more. A clearer wording of the same effect would have been: "Instead of converting extra successes, SFC allows you to add (Str or the attack roll's threshold successes, whichever is lower) to post-soak damage".
                  Ahhh, ok, thank you Aluminiumtrioxid, promptly printed your reply up.

                  Thank you all, I'm glad to see my friends and I aren't the only ones who read what was written off from the intent. We lean heavily on a resource I found here on the forums of @Irked's charm rewrite that cut away all the fluff and boiled it down to a lot clearer understanding, but sadly that document hadn't touched on the MA charms. Again many thanks for everyone's input.
                  Last edited by Seeker1728; 03-28-2017, 01:11 PM. Reason: crediting author of the charm rewrite


                  Reality is a matter of perception, challenging one's own or that of others is not a crime, it is a service.

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