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  • We Want Gateway: The Boardgame

    Originally posted by http://rathess.xi.co.nz/exalted/index.php/Gateway
    Gateway is a board game popular with the Dynasts of the Scarlet Empire and was introduced to the Realm at large in RY 466 by Cathak Cacek. It is favorably looked upon as a pastime among young Dynasts because it is supposed to train tactical and strategic talents. There is known to be at least three variants of the game, known as the Hunting Cat variant—a short, aggressive game for two to six players...... the Guardian Gate variant, which is a defensive variant that takes more time to play than Hunting Cat, but less than traditional Gateway; and the Spirit-Frogvariant, which is an allegorical one-person game used to teach basic philosophical and religious concepts.
    Many of us have been fascinated by the game of Gateway, likening it to Chess or Go; a simplistic enough game with deep strategy. For many years, likely from it's inception in the 1e Dragon Blooded book, I believe, we have attempted to create actual rules for this Dynastic pastime. And although we have asked developers and writers about it as well, it simply has never been a priority or really feasible for an official attempt at it.

    Let's try to change that. This thread should be devoted to utilizing various ways to gather attention to how many of us actually want and would buy an official Gateway boardgame! Links to contact OPP, a tally of interested parties, etc... I admit I'm not entirely certain how to go about this by myself, but I believe creating a hub for the Gateway Movement would be a good starting point.

    Now, personally, I believe the only real way to get this off the ground is to attempt to get a Kickstarter for the project going. I think that'd be good and would give a lot to see this happen! So, please, feel free and please do post with your interest in this!

  • #2
    I love this idea!!


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    • #3
      I personally use the Chinese game Xiangqi as my personal inspiration. I would add some things like well, a Gate instead of a River and maybe fluff things to fit a Dragon-Blooded Shogunate things.

      Chess and its variants are kind of obvious the inspiration. I would try to build on that on somehting further.

      And stuff.


      And stuff.
      Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

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      • #4
        One of the things about Gateway is that apparently it's designed to be played with two or more people. There are a lot of games like Chess or Shogi that are similar, but they're all designed to be played with two people, not more.

        Are there any similar real life games that were made for multiple players?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
          One of the things about Gateway is that apparently it's designed to be played with two or more people. There are a lot of games like Chess or Shogi that are similar, but they're all designed to be played with two people, not more.

          Are there any similar real life games that were made for multiple players?
          Only one that comes to mind is Sternhalma ("Chinese checkers" ... actually created by germans.)


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          • #6
            Oh, other reason I like Xianqi: Flying General Move seems like an Exalted Charmname.

            I honestly would sooner just discard the entire idea of a more-than-two game since at that point you're not really going to find anything I think like a piece-and-board game remotely balanced or predictably strategic. It's doable maybe with things more like modern games or Stratego, but I'm skepitcaly ou can get a good chess-alike save maybe the three-player version of xianqi.

            And stuff.


            And stuff.
            Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Fata-Ku View Post
              Only one that comes to mind is Sternhalma ("Chinese checkers" ... actually created by germans.)
              Yeah, that was the only thing that came to my mind as well.

              Now that I think about it though, we did see Kess and Mnemon playing Gateway in the 2nd edition Dragon Blooded book. It looks like there are 3 boards that you play on. It might have some kind of semi-tactical ideas, like moving pieces between boards. Who knows.

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              • #8
                Yeah it always made me think of some version of the Star Trek chess.

                Spoilered because huge for some reason...




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                • #9
                  I've been toying with the idea of creating a set of rules for playing Gateway for a while now. if Onyx Path could make an official Gateway board-game i would absolutely buy it and i have friends who would jump on it as well.

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                  • #10
                    I would blow SO MUCH money on a Gateway game. Seriously. So much money.

                    If we were gonna do it, though, we would want to take the time to do it right. Creating simple-to-learn but hard-to-master games with staggering tactical depth that can be used as allegories to teach war or philosophy isn't exactly an easy thing to accomplish. I think Chess or Xiangqi are close to what we want-a small number of types of pieces with different legal movements that are easy to learn but lead to emerging complexity.

                    Xiangqui's multiple "terrain types" on the board, where some pieces gain advantages or disadvantages based on position, should definitely be a source of inspiration. If we're using multi-level boards, we should consider making them optional (multi level setups are a pain to actually play in practice).

                    I'd propose a large bottom game board with a couple terrain types. I'm liking the Palace from Xiangqi, and I also like the river in the middle. I propose to make things Exalted, we should try to get all the elements in there: in addition to the fortress and river, we need to also include a "wooded" area of the board. Our second floating board can easily represent Air (and limiting which pieces can move to and from that board can give us the ability to play variants of the game without using it if we just leave out our flying pieces), and I suggest that there be pieces that can modify the Fortress or the Wood by "setting them on fire," changing movement rules in those areas during play. Probably not a bad idea to include movement-restricting walls with Gateways on the board to serve as bottlenecks?

                    In terms of variants...full "Traditional Gateway" can include multiple boards and lots of pieces and be a two-person tactical war game. I'd say that in Gateway we should diverge from the Chesss family and make victory conditions territorial rather than based on taking an enemy "king-piece"-taking control of the enemy's fortress, perhaps? For our "Hunting Cat" variant which needs to accommodate additional players, we can say everybody has a smaller number of starting pieces based on the number of players. For Guardian Gate we can go with Traditional Gateway minus extra boards and flying pieces. I also think there ought to be a "Wyld Hunt" variant wherein multiple players with weaker pieces cooperate to try corral and take down a single player with a few highly mobile and powerful pieces, again because Exalted.

                    ...actually, this sounds kinda fun to design. Anybody out there want to do a book-dive and get a list of different pieces named in the books?
                    Last edited by Wise Old Guru; 04-01-2017, 06:55 PM.


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                    • #11
                      so I've been trawling the net for a while looking for ideas. the following quotes are from other people on other forums that have also started to think about Gateway...

                      Originally posted by LeTipex View Post
                      I've been thinking about gateway these past few days... And I decided to post my thoughts on the fluff part of it for your perusal.


                      So, gateway. It's supposed to be freaking complex, and difficult. I mean, chess has all these rules for movement of the pieces, but fuck that, still too simple. Go is a mind twister most of the time with all the possibilities, but there's only one type of piece and you can't move them, so where's the fun in that?

                      As it is, I always saw gateway as a mix between the two. You play on a 20 by 20 grid, like with go, and you add your pieces to overwhelm the other player. But you've got many type of pieces, and each can move once you've added it to the grid, in a specific way (like in chess, really). Each turn, you can add another piece on the grid, or choose to move one.

                      Got that? Well, good, because we're only getting started.

                      You cannot place your pieces everywhere on the grid at any moment, of course. You start the game with a few special pieces, called "gateways" (see what I did there?) and each of those allow you to control an area where you can decide to add other pieces. Thus, a major part of the strategy consist of protecting your gateways from the other players and trying to take his gateways from him. Wining a match against a player who took all your gateways and still has his is considered a overwhelming demonstration of your skills.

                      Players start with a number of gateways that can change depending on the type of game you decide to play. For a one-on-one game, having one gateway per player is a good way to learn, but the rules allow for play with up to four gateways per player. If you decide to play with other opponents, you decide beforehand how much gateway you allow per person (no rules allow for more than 8 gateways at the start of the game, and you cannot put a gateway on the grid during play)

                      Still following me? Jeez, you're doing well. Now for the final mindfuck. You can have up to four players in the same game, but there are five colours of pieces, one for each element. Unlike chess, where each player has the exact same layout of pieces as the other, and where only the colour of the pieces change, strategy in gateway depends on the colour you choose at the start of play.

                      Blue (air) players usually focus on movement, using pieces that can get from one end of the set to another, but are easily blocked by other pieces.
                      Black (water) sets have strange movement rules (think of the horse in chess compared to other pieces), and there is no simple strategy when using them, but good water players can wreck havoc with unconventional techniques.
                      White (earth) sets have few, slow moving pieces, but most of these can move in several directions, making them good at building an easily defensible territory.
                      Green (wood) pieces each attack and move by using a different movement (think about the pawn in chess, that moves foward but attack by moving diagonally), and a good wood player uses this to defend his pieces without ampering their movements.
                      Red (fire) players are usually considered agressive. They have the advantage in the start of play, when few pieces are on the grid, but are easily ampered once many pieces have been put in play.
                      (Some very rich players have entire jade gateway sets, but most sets are simply carved stone)

                      At the start of a game, each player choose his colour. Players then take turn placing their gateways on the grid (you cannot at this point place any gateway immediately next to another). Order of play is similar to seasons (Air, then Water, then Earth, then Wood, and finally Fire). One all gateways have been placed, the game starts, each player choosing on his turn either to place a new pieces on his gateway area, or to move one of his pieces.

                      One cannot place a piece in a gateway area on top of another piece already there. (That essentially means that you cannot attack another piece by simply making one appear on top of it, you need to move a piece already in play to attack. In turn, this usually means that "rushing" the gateway area of another player with your pieces is a valid, if risky technique : you'll stop him from using his gateway properly, even thought you risk loosing many pieces in the process)


                      So, what do you think? Is it Exalted-ish enough? Anything that need to be changed/explored in greater depth/explained again? And how do YOU represent gateway in your games?


                      Originally posted by The Eye View Post
                      i've often thought about writing up some rules for it, but i haven't yet. i've got some ideas though...

                      pieces should be capturable, so, either go or chess are a good starting point. it's obvious that the game is based on chess (look at the picture!), so, let's start with go as a basis.
                      i'm thinking that you put pieces on the board, in attempts to capture the other pieces, while avoiding capture yourself...

                      what if each animal threatened a different area of space (i.e. how the different chess pieces work), and to capture a piece, at least two pieces have to threaten the space?
                      this would allow for flying creatures (such as gryphons or large birds) to fly up to the higher board spaces, and certainly add some interesting strategy.

                      this could also mean that there are a great deal of different types of pieces, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, and every game need not use all of them. maybe local variants have different standard pieces... i imagine birds having a grater range, but only needing one threatener to be captured, and tough animals like turtles needing more threateners to be captured, etc.


                      there's a lot in there... i'll be back later with some more solid ideas, i hope!

                      and the following are all my notes so far... yeah i haven't done much thinking on it yet...

                      ideas

                      20*20 board (multiple Terrain types?)
                      combo of Chess and Go

                      Elemental pieces vs animal pieces: both have merit, consider Elemental Sets with Animal pieces

                      Pieces:
                      Gateways (spawn locations): if all yours are captured then you lose
                      Yedim
                      Gryphon
                      Wolf
                      Unicorn




                      capturing: pieces must be threatened by at least two enemies to be captured. these do not have to be from the same side.
                      Elemental Advantage: against pieces that are "weak" to your element only one piece needs to threaten the target to allow capture..




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                      • #12
                        Djambi, a.k.a. Machiavelli's Chessboard could be good for inspiration too

                        Namely, the dead stay on the board, flipped over. A good way to train future strategists to think about corpse disposal, lest they get back-attacked by zombies and ghosts.
                        Last edited by Fata-Ku; 04-01-2017, 10:15 PM.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                          Yeah, that was the only thing that came to my mind as well.

                          Now that I think about it though, we did see Kess and Mnemon playing Gateway in the 2nd edition Dragon Blooded book. It looks like there are 3 boards that you play on. It might have some kind of semi-tactical ideas, like moving pieces between boards. Who knows.

                          In retrospect that comic sort of bothers me. Mnemon is that bad at managing her emotions?

                          (Then again, given current US politics...)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
                            In retrospect that comic sort of bothers me. Mnemon is that bad at managing her emotions?

                            (Then again, given current US politics...)
                            To be fair, that's basically what Demon Harpists do. Their music speaks to the souls of people, reminding them of the things they've lost or never had. It affects those who are unhappy with their lives more strongly than those who are happy. Kes' question, coupled with the Angyalkae's song got her to lose her cool. You can even see, thanks to the musical score, how the music becomes a little more jagged as that moment occurs. She was probably counting on her harpist to have more of an effect on Kes, but the problem is that Kes is generally pretty happy with his life in a way that Mnemon is not, so her scheme ended up backfiring a bit.

                            But I'll agree that the comic doesn't really paint Mnemon in the most flattering light.
                            Last edited by AnubisXy; 04-02-2017, 01:22 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Protector152 View Post
                              so I've been trawling the net for a while looking for ideas. the following quotes are from other people on other forums that have also started to think about Gateway...







                              and the following are all my notes so far... yeah i haven't done much thinking on it yet...

                              ideas

                              20*20 board (multiple Terrain types?)
                              combo of Chess and Go

                              Elemental pieces vs animal pieces: both have merit, consider Elemental Sets with Animal pieces

                              Pieces:
                              Gateways (spawn locations): if all yours are captured then you lose
                              Yedim
                              Gryphon
                              Wolf
                              Unicorn




                              capturing: pieces must be threatened by at least two enemies to be captured. these do not have to be from the same side.
                              Elemental Advantage: against pieces that are "weak" to your element only one piece needs to threaten the target to allow capture..



                              Hey, that's an ooold post of mine you found there.

                              I've tried designing rules for gateway at least three or four times. That was one of my early attempts. In retrospect it's a bit less ... elegant than I'd like it (its complex but it's not the sort of games where you can explain the rules in a few minutes like chess or go, and where the complexity of the game play is emergent, which I'd like it to be.)

                              Thought some of the things here I like (the Gateways as spawn points for exemple.)


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