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  • Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
    Please find below an Arms of the Chosen sidebar on First Age Artifice
    You spoil us, Eric!
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 04-05-2017, 08:07 PM.

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    • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
      The necessity of a specialized facility isn't putting the workshop ahead of the artisan - it just adds one more factor that stops them being made in any serious numbers in the Age of Sorrows.
      High level Workings are really hard. Highly sophisticated craft projects are really hard (and require White XP, which is also hard to get in the first place). Finding one character who can do both is rare, and coordinating multiple people to collaborate is really hard. Such characters finding the time to commit to such projects in post-apocalyptic Age of Sorrows, instead of maintaining their means of survival and/or power is really hard.

      I should think that's enough.

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      • Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
        Please find below an Arms of the Chosen sidebar on First Age Artifice. As with all previews, this material is subject to change.

        Note that we are still looking to refine this sidebar. We want to make sure that everything that should be listed as First Age Artifice is covered, and that the explanations presented herein are clear. Feedback in this instance is welcome, though of course there is no guarantee that any specific reader’s feedback will be used.
        That seems like a fairly good way to do it. The out of game statement makes it clear that this is as much for the themes of the game as anything else, which is what's important.

        So yeah, I dig it.

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        • Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
          Please find below an Arms of the Chosen sidebar on First Age Artifice. As with all previews, this material is subject to change.
          That is a niiiiiiice sidebar.

          It's good it's explicitely putting stuff out there we can infer from the mentions in the core and plainly addressing what distinguishes First Age Craft from other artifacts. I like how it points out that that PCs can restore pieces of old great marvels to their former glory or make new ones, but returning the full wonder of First Age crafting and construction to the world requires more foundational efforts.

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          • I am feeling pretty liberated right now.


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            • Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
              Please find below an Arms of the Chosen sidebar on First Age Artifice. As with all previews, this material is subject to change.

              Note that we are still looking to refine this sidebar. We want to make sure that everything that should be listed as First Age Artifice is covered, and that the explanations presented herein are clear. Feedback in this instance is welcome, though of course there is no guarantee that any specific reader’s feedback will be used.

              (The final paragraph concerns a formatting trick to highlight relevant artifacts and save on wordcount, but it may prove unnecessary depending on how many such artifacts actually make it into the final draft.)

              Enjoy!
              * * * * *

              First Age Artifice

              By incorporating sorcery and other arcane sciences into their work, First Age artificers achieved feats beyond the grasp of latter-day smiths. This, specifically, is what is meant by First Age artifice (Exalted, pp.243-244). Then as now, most artifacts constructed in the First Age employed more straightforward techniques. First Age artifice was reserved for grand and sublime feats that could not otherwise be achieved.

              Artifacts requiring Craft (First Age Artifice) include such things as warstriders, airships, powered armor, miraculous infrastructure, sophisticated siege weaponry, automata with human-level intelligence, and anything else the Storyteller feels is incompatible with the setting of the Time of Tumult.

              Out of game, this subsystem supports the setting conceit that many First Age marvels could neither be maintained nor replaced after the Usurpation, and allows Solar characters to repair and rebuild a few miraculous wonders from that era without being able to casually restore the glories of the First Age singlehandedly. It also ensures that certain artifact types are sufficiently difficult to construct that characters can't build them casually, and that they are very rare in the Time of Tumult without being outright impossible to create in play. These restrictions are fuzzy and ultimately rely on Storyteller judgment.

              The section mark (§) denotes an artifact requiring Craft (First Age Artifice) to manufacture and repair. As a reminder, all crafting and repairs on such artifacts must be done with white experience points.
              As a point of clarification, is the intent that this white XP requirement be used on top of the XP necessary for the Sorcerous Working included in each roll?

              Overall, I'd say this is a great way to frame FA Artifice. It provides STs and players with the appropriate meta-setting information. It tells us to have fun, but also marks borders. Definitely a good balance.

              I also like that you clarified FA Artifice really is the product of the First Age, not something Lookshy does every Venusday.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
                Please find below an Arms of the Chosen sidebar on First Age Artifice. As with all previews, this material is subject to change.

                Note that we are still looking to refine this sidebar. We want to make sure that everything that should be listed as First Age Artifice is covered, and that the explanations presented herein are clear. Feedback in this instance is welcome, though of course there is no guarantee that any specific reader’s feedback will be used.

                (The final paragraph concerns a formatting trick to highlight relevant artifacts and save on wordcount, but it may prove unnecessary depending on how many such artifacts actually make it into the final draft.)

                Enjoy!
                * * * * *

                First Age Artifice

                By incorporating sorcery and other arcane sciences into their work, First Age artificers achieved feats beyond the grasp of latter-day smiths. This, specifically, is what is meant by First Age artifice (Exalted, pp.243-244). Then as now, most artifacts constructed in the First Age employed more straightforward techniques. First Age artifice was reserved for grand and sublime feats that could not otherwise be achieved.

                Artifacts requiring Craft (First Age Artifice) include such things as warstriders, airships, powered armor, miraculous infrastructure, sophisticated siege weaponry, automata with human-level intelligence, and anything else the Storyteller feels is incompatible with the setting of the Time of Tumult.

                Out of game, this subsystem supports the setting conceit that many First Age marvels could neither be maintained nor replaced after the Usurpation, and allows Solar characters to repair and rebuild a few miraculous wonders from that era without being able to casually restore the glories of the First Age singlehandedly. It also ensures that certain artifact types are sufficiently difficult to construct that characters can't build them casually, and that they are very rare in the Time of Tumult without being outright impossible to create in play. These restrictions are fuzzy and ultimately rely on Storyteller judgment.

                The section mark (§) denotes an artifact requiring Craft (First Age Artifice) to manufacture and repair. As a reminder, all crafting and repairs on such artifacts must be done with white experience points.


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                • Originally posted by Totentanz View Post
                  As a point of clarification, is the intent that this white XP requirement be used on top of the XP necessary for the Sorcerous Working included in each roll?
                  "All crafting and repairs must be done with white points, regardless of the artifact’s dot rating." (Exalted, p.244). This is just a reminder of what type of points to use for crafting and repairs, which always use craft experience points. It is unrelated to the sorcerous working, which uses non-crafting experience points.


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                  • So here's a question; would anybody consider a piece of First Age Artifice to be a necessary tool in creating certain Artifacts? Did Volcano Cutter require, as just a random possibility, a kind of sorcerous press or power hammer to shape its intense power?


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                    • Originally posted by Blackwell View Post
                      Sorcerers do crazy shit sometimes, so yeah, maybe one of them decided to magic up a spoon factory.
                      So you imagine a First Age in which most basic tools were still produced by hand?

                      Originally posted by Blackwell
                      The idea that magic manufactories are a common part of the infrastructure of the entire Old Realm indicates you can mass produce magic manufactories, which is mass-producing magic
                      Do you think that modern factories are mass produced?

                      Originally posted by Blackwell
                      First, I think warstriders are only "standardized" insofar as they are all variations on oversized magic-powered armor. Form follows function and all that. But two warstriders should certainly not have any more in common than any two daiklaves, or even any two artifact weapons more generally.
                      ​Sure, for warstriders I was thinking less like battle tanks, or even aircraft carriers, and more like spacecraft, in accordance with my very limited understanding that individual spacecraft need to be designed independently.

                      Originally posted by Blackwell
                      the idea that you need "specialized facilities" puts the properties of the workshop ahead of the properties of the artisan, which I think also feels like magi-science.
                      ​I really feel as though the ship of the dichotomy between the craftsperson and the tools they wield has sailed a bit when the setting already contains the premise of magical weaponry. Indeed, so does the idea of magical materials; barring a single, fairly limited Charm, there's no getting around the fact that you'll never be artisan enough to make a divine sword out of any material that isn't already magical.

                      ​The crafting rules directly state that necessary tools and materials are required to attempt projects of the appropriate level, and... the idea that special infrastructure was required to create the ancient wonders, and their contemporary scarcity is a feature of the Second Age, has been part of the setting since the beginning, and it's no less evident here, so it's something one just has to deal with.

                      Maybe individual tables might come up with a Charm to enhance the one that improves the time for superior and legendary crafting projects so that one can go all Craftsman Needs No Tools on it, but I would neither pursue nor allow such a thing.

                      ​To my mind, the idea of the divine hero artisan requiring tools that are at their same level in order to achieve their greatest feats just emphasizes their capability, gives them an obstacle and struggle to overcome in this Time of Tumult, and can create a decent long term character goal.

                      Originally posted by Blackwell
                      Since the root of First Age crafting is using Workings to magic-up the parts
                      For the moment, I interpret that as a matter of being somewhere between improvisation and jury rigging, and needing to start from a very early iteration of the process.

                      ​Part of my using the crafting rules to imagine the potential of the Old Realm is the idea that the Exalted had long since developed tools that could substitute for their personal efforts in a lot of matters.

                      Originally posted by Blackwell
                      since Warstriders are really hard to make naturally you'd want them. But they're not a "requirement" any more than any specific type of Means. If that makes sense?
                      ​It makes sense, but it leads to a picture of making warstriders that doesn't really resonate with me.

                      ​To me, the rules are an abstract representation of a process, and its the process that needs to have credibility for me. When I imagine something like a warstrider or a skyship, I see something of sufficient complexity that the idea of a Solar having responsibility for everything down to the smallest component and being able to put the thing together without at least a decent scaffold... I can buy it in a circumstance of extremely pressing need, but for the most part more trouble than it's worth, if not basically untenable.

                      I imagine an incomplete warstrider as looking a bit like this:

                      ​(note that this is a picture of a gigantic dress)

                      ​The work of making the individual parts is something that has been delegated out to expert artisans working according to plans made and a process supervised by the leading Exalted, and the fine work of assembly is something that they have to do personally, but it's still a big job.

                      ​As for the idea that a special facility represents a form of magi-science, recall how prior Editions depicted the biggest concern with where one built a warstrider as being spiritual contamination; how it needs to be done in a building that has been blessed by a member of the Zenith Caste, and how everybody who works there has to ritually purify themselves before entering. The story of a warstrider that was cursed because one of the team members snuck an unauthorised paramour into the building once.

                      Hell, look at Volcano Cutter; what exactly says magic-science about "a low domed manse of sun-heated metal and smoking stones, focusing and channeling the elemental glory of fire down and down to a forge built for only one purpose"?


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        So here's a question; would anybody consider a piece of First Age Artifice to be a necessary tool in creating certain Artifacts? Did Volcano Cutter require, as just a random possibility, a kind of sorcerous press or power hammer to shape its intense power?
                        If we are discussing mechanics, that seems like a perfect thing to substitute for Exotic Material Components. Though they are somewhat downplayed so far, the notion that certain techniques or processes are necessary for certain artifacts and that those techniques or processes require purpose built magic seems appropriately mythic.

                        It seems excessively punitive if too many artifacts require subsidiary artifacts to be built that have no other application, but in general, it seems like a good idea.


                        Another idea which has been bouncing around inside my head is that some aspect of the First Age might have involved second order artifact interactions. Most artifacts stand alone, essentially agnostic to where they are what is around them. If you have a weather control device and something that produces fertile soil you get synergistic effects. Perhaps some artifacts could be purpose built on the assumption that other similarly purpose-built artifacts would be present to maximize the synergistic benefits. In the second age it would be profligate to seek to maximize a single system in that way when first level artifacts can be in more places raising them above baseline even if the techniques to make them survived.

                        Artifact vessels are the example that comes to mind, where major components are artifacts which would be useful on their own but when combined produce something more than the sum of its parts.

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                        • Originally posted by Boston123 View Post


                          Really? You find the idea of a world-wide multi-industry enterprise having actual power "silly"? That is, to be blunt, quite foolish. Hell, look at the East India Company, or the Hudson Bay Company. Quasi-nations in their own right.

                          I mean, even just the act of refusing to trade could cripple your newly-founded nation.

                          "Trade with us!"

                          "......nah. Remember that guy you fucked with a while back, because they wouldn't do what you wanted? We do. Guess what: all you goods you need moved? No dice! Have fun, see you on the flipside!"

                          If you kill them, now you are the bad guys. Use GLORIOUS SOLAR MIND CONTROL to make them do what you want? Also bad guys. Hell, you were arguably the bad guys when you tried to coerce someone into doing something for you with implied death threats, but that might be splitting hairs.

                          Just throwing that out there. And, as always, my opinion.

                          Why would they be the bad guys and not the people screwing over a ton of innocent people by denying them goods because the solars ruling the nation were dicks to a guild member once? And why were they the bad guys and not the prick hoarding resources in a time of crisis and thereby screwing over everyone else?




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                          • Originally posted by Mizu View Post


                            Why would they be the bad guys and not the people screwing over a ton of innocent people by denying them goods because the solars ruling the nation were dicks to a guild member once? And why were they the bad guys and not the prick hoarding resources in a time of crisis and thereby screwing over everyone else?
                            Oh that glorious protaganist-centered morality, how I love thee.


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                            • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              So you imagine a First Age in which most basic tools were still produced by hand?
                              How much can we imagine magic and divinely enhanced training and leadership improving hand tools and improving production using hand tools (speed, quality, durability)? It could be fun to look down that route before going down the route of power looms and then more complicated machinery.

                              In some ways it could be more in keeping with the First Age as an era of human greatness (led by chosen who are about skill) to be an era where skilled craftsmen were ridiculously plentiful, where amateurs were often as skilled as the present day's best, and where magic enhanced all of this, rather than a more alternative where that's less true, but there is much marvellous machinery.

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                              • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                                ​* What about a magic factory for producing spoons?
                                Originally posted by Blackwell View Post
                                As long as you can't reproduce the factory, I think it's okay.
                                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                                So you imagine a First Age in which most basic tools were still produced by hand?​

                                Do you think that modern factories are mass produced?
                                I think you two drifted apart to talk at cross-purposes.

                                Certainly, multiple mundane factories can be built which can mundanely mass-produce lots of mundane tools.

                                Factories can be made magical with sorcery. Sorcerors are rare, even counting mortal sorcerors, so they can't really be mass-produced in the usual sense.

                                Factories can be built as massive Artifacts. These might be even rarer than sorcerously-enchanted factories, considering the expertise and costs necessary to build such a massive artifact. Definitely cannot be mass-produced.

                                Factories can be built as manses. Even rarer than factories-which-are-Artifacts, since you need a manse and the additional expertise needed to harness a manse as well as build the building-size Artifact.

                                Then there's the factories built with First Age Artifice, which is Crafting and Sorcery together.

                                And then the First Age Artifice Manse-Factory.


                                Except for the mundane factory, none of these facilities should be produced anywhere close to "en mass". Further, absolutely NONE of these facilities should allow for the mass-production of other artifacts. A magical building designed to build Artifacts should be garages and workshops for commissioned, custom-designed wonders, not factories for producing endless supplies of equipment.


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