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Lunar-Exclusive Infrastructure

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  • Lunar-Exclusive Infrastructure

    In the previous forum, there was a discussion about the relationship between Lunar Exalted, infrastructure, and scorched-earth policies.

    Inspired to find a solution to Lunar needs, Kukla explored the possibility of infrastructure that (1) Lunar Exalted could create and use which would either (2) be useless to the Dragon-Blooded or Sidereals if they were to capture it, and (3) ideally would not even be recognized as infrastructure should those enemies even find it.

    Let us start such a thread again, emboldened by the possibilities offered by Third Edition's sorcerous workings. Also the fact that Craft (First Age Artifice) can apply to large-scale projects like architecture and landscaping, and does not explicitly require "factory cathedrals" and the other magitech trappings of Second Edition.

    Last year, I posted about how the ancient peoples of our world's Amazon rainforest actually Gardened The Jungle to an amazing and underappreciated extent. They discovered how to fertilize the soil via a process we cannot solve, they divided the jungle into a geometric series of interconnected plots without the use of the satellite technology we now need to see the lines, and they cultivated the growth and success of desirable fruit trees above other sorts of trees, resulting in a steady crop of food that would go unnoticed above the heads of those who could only imagine temperate-climate vegetable-fields.

    First-explorer accounts also spoke of the beautiful wooden cities they built which, when left abandoned by plague (or by a Lunar Exalt urging his people into exodus) would be consumed and reclaimed by the jungle such that later-wave explorers would never know a settlement was ever there. A city made from wood would be relatively easy to rebuild elsewhere, as well as to repair from damage or reconstruct to meet new needs, and the chances of fire would seem greatly reduced by the greater humidity and rainfall inherent to a rainforest.

    In his opening post, Kukla wrote:

    Originally posted by Kukla
    My assumption is that Lunars have created marvelous, incredible, densely layered infrastructure that is, to Terrestrials, both absolutely useless and virtually invisible:

    Dream-lands where they conference with each other from across the world.

    Gardens that grow a thousand secret venoms and medicines but only blossom under a Lunar anima:

    Underwater rivers that flow anywhere but to the sea - subways that flow faster than rapids, invisible to all, only useful if you can be both a mole and a salmon.

    Likewise, jet-streams swirling high in the air, faster still, dragging wayward seagulls off course and carrying Lunars who know them to their destination.

    Enslaved Unshaped whose pithed Emanations gnash at the bits in their mouths as they and the world they are hammer fountains of gossamer pouring from a No-Moon's third eye into weapons.

    formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami

  • #2
    To satisfy word-count and make these easier to quote, I will be presenting partial quotes with the posters' ideas included outside of quotes:

    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru
    I think the most important thing is manses with tremendous powers bought with the Habitability and Maintenance Flaws which are inhospitable or hard to get to, which Lunars can use to fuel infrastructure but which aren't usable by their enemies.
    1. A manse consisting of grooves carved into a cliff face, which trains those who climb it in an array of arts, and which kills those who aren't worthy to lead the people the Lunar carved the designs for.

    2. A powerful factory-manse hidden inside a volcano and operated by the lunar's obsidian-skinned children, who are impervious to its heat.

    3. Underground desert manses which collect water and provide food...but require you to be able to burrow like the Lunar's mole-hound children to reach their entrances.

    4. A subtle manse composed of a maze of nearly-invisible spiderwebs in an isolated and unsettled section of jungle which grants a powerful hearthstone and phenomenal advantages to sorcery and artifact-crafting, guarded by giant spiders...and easy to brush aside and walk through without ever noticing it.

    5. Icebergs whose innards are bitterly cold and only reachable by tunnels deep underwater...which carry tremendous tonnages of cargo and heavily-furred seal-beastman troops through the northern seas, smashing ships so the beastmen can gather their treasure from the sea-floor. They are piloted by ritual dances that take years to master, to prevent outsiders from seizing them.

    I'm liking this "wild civilization" aesthetic.

    formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


    • #3
      Originally posted by wastevens
      The iceberg thing is awesome
      So, stepping back a moment: A great deal of infrastructure is about increasing surplus value from each available worker- generally either via trade (which allows workers to focus on maximizing relative advantage) or by reducing the complexity of labor (the progression from master-apprentice to guilds to industry to assembly line to total automation illustrates this progression).

      The former is something that I suspect many Lunars are dead-set against; when workers begin specializing in maximizing relative advantage, they become interdependent, which can lead to cascade failures in the system. Likewise, by reducing the complexity of labor, when that reduction in complexity is accomplished by tools, you can run into cascade failures where individuals have no idea how to survive when their way of life suddenly and radically changes.

      Additionally, on the second, when the complexity of labor is higher, it tends to be harder to subvert.

      However, Lunars would still want to maximize surplus value! Greater surplus value pretty directly translates to a better life for more people. Lunars would, I think, argue for the greatest amount of surplus value possible, while introducing the fewest points of cascade failure and potential subversion as possible.

      The goal, I think, shouldn't just be tools that Lunars can use, and no one else, because that supports the idea of 'Lunars hate running water and toiler paper'; the idea should be tools that are effective at accomplishing a different set of priorities than are classically considered. Tools that only require people, but may require long periods of training to make proper use of. Tools that require the fewest number of relationships to maintain. Tools that do not limit mobility; ideally, they enhance it.

      Lunars don't hate running water and toilet paper- they just consider the pre-requisites of running water and toiler paper to pose unacceptable risks of cascade failure.


      * Creating a vast network of oral traditions, which secretly encode whole libraries worth of maths, philosophies and occult sciences and secrets. Telling a story that is inserted into the tradition is like adding a new book to the library; killing a storyteller is like burning one down. And of course, once such a tradition is established, stories outside of Lunar controll will be inevitably added.

      * Growing plants that allow imbimbers (when accompanied by certain thaumaturgical rituals) to enter a shared dream-space, where complex skills can be trained and transferred far more quickly.

      * Training to cultivate certain Wyld prodigies to substitute in useful good gaps, rather than relying on trade- things like Ironwood, Firepearls, Bloodberries and the like. The cultivation of such goods in Creation should be too difficult and long term to industrialize, but can be managed by a relatively small number of people that know what they're doing. While they won't be as plentiful as the more mundane items, they also will be entirely under the control of the individuals harvesting them.

      * Tribal Manses- instead of a fixed, physical, magical palace, an entire tribe's rituals and routines serve to stablize, focus and direct a Demeneses' energy into either a Hearthstone, or to imbue the Hearthstone's power into a member of the tribe; even one without Awakened Essence or the ability to attune to the Demense normally.

      formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


      • #4
        This is a Charm with no regard for infrastructure, but was nevertheless an inspired response to one of Kukla's ideas

        Originally posted by Aranis
        Here, try this as a foundation for how the dream-thing might work.
        Travels of the Argent Muse
        10m, 1wp; Mins: Intelligence 3, Essence 2; Type: Simple
        Keywords: Merged (Charisma)
        Duration: Until the next nightfall
        Prerequisite Charms: None
        The Chosen of Luna are no strangers to altered frames of mind and altered states of being, and this Charm is the least expression of that penchant.

        Using this Charm, the Lunar becomes Inactive in the physical world. If the Luna suffers any amount of damage, then the Charm is ended. Otherwise, he may end this Charm at any time of his choosing. While this Charm is active, the Lunar's mind shifts into the realm of dreams. This functions by the Lunar's own mind being a sort of sanctum where he appears when he first uses this Charm. From there, he may travel into the mind of any dreamer within (Lunar's permanent Essence X 10) miles as a diceless, miscellaneous action. This could give the Lunar insight into the character's thouhts and plans, and few individuals have defenses against this kind of intrusion. The foremost danger of traveling this way is the encountering of Raksha inhabiting mortal minds, who treat dreams as the Middlemarches. Should a Lunar engage in combat, his Traits, Charms, and any other powers function as normal.

        formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


        • #5
          Originally posted by Octopoid
          Gates of Wyld energy that inflict hideous physical mutations (as a protective measure)

          Networks of animal (or plant!!!) informants
          Originally posted by LOOK
          A Labyrinthine network of elsewhere dens used for trade and transport, but accessible only though Lunar magics.

          A Literal river of desire, that bends the hopes and motivation of those that drink from it (and is thus used to manipulate all the villages along its banks).

          Ancient treasure troves of burried power, waiting only for the Realm to weaken sufficiently that they can no longer resist (i.e. reclaim) the arsenal.
          Originally posted by Segev
          Semi-sentient swarms with inherited memory into which a Lunar may imprint information via his teaching Charms, and which other Lunars may Sacred Hunt individual swarm members from to use Lessons in the Blood to learn the information imprinted therein.

          Cults that worship "sacred objects" of which the Lunar has Sacred Hunted the least gods, enabling the Lunar to benefit from a Cult that is much larger than it seems and possibly even to assume the stolen gods' forms to hear the prayers of the cultists. This can serve as a "street level" information source (what are people praying about?) and as a communication network if fellow Lunars know which objects to which to pray.

          Craft:Genesis laboratories that are actually entire ecosystems which anybody trained properly can manage and maintain and utilize, but which have more shamanistic practices for fertility rites and to perform husbandry to produce the exact desired species. It's ultimately slower than many other Craft suites, but the goods wind up being self-replicating and -replenishing.
          Originally posted by light-hero
          Pandora (as in, the biologically-interconnected planet of the James Cameron Avatar movie.)
          Originally posted by Nemal
          One thing I'm writing for my game, that Lunars made, was a sapient fungus-network with Avatar-the-movie-style nerve ending connections that specially engineered creatures could connect to.

          It's essentially the internet, but built on fungii.

          Damned Contagion nearly wiped it out, sadly.
          Originally posted by DSism
          Using Gaia's bounty to grow exotic materials: The Heart Tree falls in love once a season. It's love then causes the leaves to turn red and fall. The Love Leaves are raked up and can be used as a substitute for true love in an Artifact or burnt to cause people to inhale the smoke to fall in love with the person the tree swooned after.

          Lunar infrastructure should make other Exalts say "WTF."
          "Roadie" posted a picture of one of those famous perspective-twisting paintings where stairs are going all over the place and people are walking around without any shared concept of "up" or "down". To which Segev replied that Lunars are responsible for illogical video-game platforming environments in the physical world of Creation. To which Roadie posted a picture of a Psychonauts level where Raz is rail-grinding through what appears to be the world experiencing an acid-trip.

          formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


          • #6
            Originally posted by Brasstreader
            Beast-Totem Cults in the Underworld from generations of Threshold tribes during the Shogunate and Realm worshiping them.

            For instance, if you're a horse-lunar and you tied your worship intricately with that of the horse-god of Marukan, then exploited the ghosts and their related ancestor cults to keep tabs on Creation over thousands of miles.
            Brasstreader was particularly interested in projects that Lunar Exalted could use to aggressively screw with the Dragon-Blooded.

            Originally posted by Brasstreader
            A breed of simhatas that, upon bonding with a Terrestrial, explode.
            Originally posted by Octopoid
            Originally posted by Kukla
            "I HAVE AT LAST TAMED THIS MIGHTY STE-"*fuckblammo*
            Originally posted by Brasstreader
            Dragonblood-Beastman breeding programs such that their offsprings' induction into the Realm would be a PR nightmare.
            Originally posted by Dean Shomshack
            Originally posted by Brasstreader
            A box of maiden tea that sterilizes on the first cup, while tasting of jasmine tea, shipped to brothels along the supply-lines of a Realm occupation force in the Threshold. 100 Dragonbloods were rendered inert during the Tepet Campaign, leading to a small fate-strand cascade failure as half a future lineage temporarily evaporates before Serenity Chosen can fix the problem. This cascade masks a single bribe sent to a sleeper cell in Cherak.

            For three days, the poppy fields burn uncontrollably. The damage is irreversible. A Guild interest purchases the land from an impoverished Dynast for cheap, along with the slaves, one of which is the Lunar's father. The Lunar's first debt to the Guild is paid; the second debt, to see his father well-cared for as he toils in the fields, has yet to be collected on.

            formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dean Shomshack
              I'll note that the 1e Lunar book laid out pretty much the entire outer Threshold as Lunar turf.

              The canonical examples, however, have been, well, sparse and uneven in quality. So far, developers either haven't been interested in developing "Lunarstan", or haven't been permitted the opportunity. I hope that may change.

              This thread has scads of good examples of things Lunars could be doing, that make Halta's "Herp derp, they live in trees!" look pathetically unimaginative.

              (Not that "They live in trees" was a bad idea. Or the semi-sentient pets and fully sentinet animals, either. But it was all implemented in such an unimaginative way.)
              Yeah, fuck Halta.

              formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


              • #8
                Again, posting part of the original post outside of quotes to satisfy ten-count and allow ease of further quoting:

                Originally posted by Golden Demon
                Beastmen. Beastmen are a big thing. The Realm has religious objections to working with and using beastmen.

                Heck, the Realm has religious objections to beastmen existing.
                From that, we can extrapolate "anything that's only or much more useful to beastmen or mutants," which gives us things like "roads" through the jungle composed of lines of completely ordinary-looking trees that just happen to have lots of long, free-hanging vines (perfect for swinging on by man or monkey-man), underground desert manses only accessible to sand-swimmer-men, fortified deep-sea trenches full of geothermally powered factories cranking out artifacts for the Lunar's armies at depths that none but the strange, delicate mutants that live there could survive, networks of flooded caves through which the eelmen children of the Lunar can carry his messages at speed and without detection, civilizations build on solidified clouds from which hawkmen, winged mutants, or ordinary humans riding giant birds launch hit-and-run aerial raids, and so on and so forth.

                We can even broaden that somewhat to include all mutation-based advantages. A Lunar could create gigantic two-headed war rhinoceri to lead his charges, which do not breed true (or even at all) because their mutations were applied by his Charms, and so are useless to the Realm if captured. A tribe of desert nomads would surely find their lives much easier if their camels were adapted to eat sand. The possibilities are endless.

                Of course, with sufficient creativity the Realm can find a way to make almost anything work (unless the Lunar does something clever like gene-lock the magitech weapons they produce, a la District 9) - Water Aspects or power-armored commandos would probably find navigating flooded caves or oceanfloor trenches a cinch, and if the Lunar's doing something clever with plant-based technology then by Sextes Jylis a Wood Aspect should catch on eventually!

                Still, "theoretically useful to the Terrestrials" is not the same thing as "remotely convenient," or "useful to the garden-variety-mortal armies we like to carry around with us."

                formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Wise Old Guru"
                  Infrastructure designed to maintain a civilization that can't be usefully co-opted by the Dragon-blooded Host:
                  1. A series of boulders set in a river with a strong that impart water-breathing mutations to anyone who swims between them in the right pattern: no reason for the Lunar to have to stick around and keep applying mutations to the tribe in person when she can build a manse, after all. The manse's intelligence reads your mind and only grants water-breathing powers to those it deems worthy: ie, those who are loyal to their tribe/Luna/the Lunar.

                  2. Innocuous beaver-dams/muskrat holes with space-warping properties such that their insides hold entire villages/cities, like that bonsai tree city in the East book. Most dragonbloods don't spend their time smashing open every beaver-dam they see in the hopes of finding magical cities, and so they remain well-hidden.

                  3. Underwater western tribes-who needs your underwater cities to be air-filled? Sure, Water-aspects might invade...but they can't meaningfully hold the place.

                  4. Mutate a tribe so that they can digest a potent plant toxin or three....and have them use some poisonous fruit/vegetable as their primary food crop. If the Realm conquers their territory, they won't be able to feed their Legions.

                  5. Venereal diseases which only affect the Dragon-blooded.

                  6. Northern tribes mutated to eat snow and ignore the cold-the ability to wage war during the winter would grant them a possibly-insurmountable advantage, particularly if they were trained in cutting the enemy's supply lines before any major offensive. And it's hard to conquer people who can just retreat north and let you take more and more territory, lengthening your supply lines as you go...

                  7. Nomadic civilizations whose yearly wanderings ARE a giant prayer-mandala to the Lunar who founded their tribe.

                  8. Swarms of biting insects which are actually biotech medkits: they'll suck poisons and disease out of your system and use acupuncture and essence-flows to speed healing times and reduce the risk of infections from the wounds you have. Of course, the Realm's Legions would never find out, because they'd be swatting the flies and mosquitos away or killing them with their animas.

                  9. A forest-factory manse that produces useful organic artifacts for the populace instead of fruit...but at really high altitudes, on thin branches. The local birdman-tribe can harvest them easily. The dragonblooded troops marching through the forest below will never know the wealth hidden in the canopy high above them, because people never really look up.

                  10. An empty, ruined First Age city that can only be entered by falling asleep inside its walls-in which case, you'll enter a bustling dream-city filled with thousands of people and all manner of wonders. They'll take whatever goods you have to trade and give you miracles that'll vanish when you leave the city (and therefore wake up), but whatever you traded will still be gone when you wake up...and if the Lunar master of the place eats your body while you're asleep in the dream-city, you won't ever be able to leave. Something of a trap built by a nasty Lunar who uses it to murder explorers or Dynasts delving too deeply into her territory, or as a way to gather useful supplies without paying for them.

                  formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru
                    4. Mutate a tribe so that they can digest a potent plant toxin or three....and have them use some poisonous fruit/vegetable as their primary food crop. If the Realm conquers their territory, they won't be able to feed their Legions.
                    Originally posted by Scary Pancakes
                    This is a really good idea.
                    For an added bonus breed some ruggedness in their main food plant that allows it to spread all on it's own. So that your hunter gatherer tribe can actually grow as large as a sedentary farming civilization. And the more land the plant covers the more land your tribe has to fall back on if it's invaded.

                    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru
                    I really like this! Poisonous-yet-nutricious kudzu for the win!

                    Let's see if we can think up some more:
                    1. Swarms of extremely plentiful insects or foliage that glow in the presence of elementally-aspected Essence-pretty, to be sure, but when your tribe lives in a Mirkwood-like forest with very little light, it pretty much paints a big target on any Dragonblood who enters their territory: a target for blowguns from the trees. Also handy for finding ley lines and demesnes.

                    2. Stone totems engraved with sorcerous sigils, buried deep in the ground and forming a vast circle around a chosen territory. Within that territory, their enchantment causes mundane metals to rapidly corrode into uselessness such that weapons break and armor loses its mobility and protective value. While they can't corrode artifacts, the enchantment does affect alloys, increasing mobility penalties and the like. Harmless to your tribes (they use Dragon King sword-clubs grown from plants and wear woven wicker armor), but crippling to foreign forces.

                    3. Terrifying nightmares that hit every night and spread by conversational contact as a contagious can cure someone who catches them with a simple prayer to Luna and a string of ritualized insults to the Immaculate Dragons.

                    4. Specially engineered flowers whose pollen contains a poison causing unwilling Peripheral essence expenditure: like those pillars, only a bit more subtle. Spontaneously bursting into an anima display is inconvenient for a Dragonblood who doesn't want to destroy his men or his surroundings...and more importantly, he'll be a lot easier for your warriors to take down if you wait until his anima dies down and hit him when he's low on motes. When you're in the territory, you just use shapechanging to put filters on your nose, or hold your breath for an hour or two like a marine mammal.

                    5. Deep in the Southern desert, your people have made an alliance with a local court of fire elementals. You provide prayer and a Lunar strongman as an ally and protection from the Immaculate Order and Heaven...and they provide a series of underground lava tunnels which open up in strategically important places all over your stretch of territory. These tunnels aren't really usable by most Dragonbloods or their troops: they're still active, you see. The regularly-scheduled flow of lava is what pushes your moonsilver subway trains along the tracks. Your tribe's shamans know the subway schedules, which change every full moon.

                    6. The Dynasty is largely unaware that the Blessed Isle is home to a Lunar stronghold: a Changing Moon has spent eighty years as a mouse in the Imperial city, and the place is packed full of his Ata-beast offspring. As intelligent as any human, possessed of their own language, and capable of cooperation (and, in some cases, trained in the arts of thaumaturgy), these mice relay all manner of information on the Scarlet Empire to the rest of the Silver Pact...or information on one Great House to another, to foment civil war. The Dragonbloods may control the territory, but they don't usually worry about what goes on inside their own walls. The Sidereals have noticed that the Lunars have more information than they ought to have on Dynastic politics...but they're blaming it on Lunar spies impersonating members of the All-Seeing eye or sneaking into Heaven disguised as local deities. Bonus points if the mice are building mice-machines and weapons: go all Nimh on it.

                    7. A Lunar and his tribe of People of the Air have made an alliance with some of the Cloud People and sorcerously enchanted a network of cloud-islands for solidity. They don't interact with the ground much, and the Bureau of Destiny doesn't know about them because they leave cloud movements to the Bureaus of Nature and Seasons...and even if the DBs did know about 'em, the clouds will turn back into wispy vapor unless a Celestial circle spell is cast on them once every few years, making them useless to anyone without a Celestial sorcerer handy.

                    8. When your people move by brachiation, covering the floor of your forests with thorned and poisonous plants is a great way to prevent enemy forces from moving in on the ground. Bonus points if these plants are hardy and fast-spreading and produce poisonous fruit for your tribes.

                    9. Your tribe lives in the South. You've mutated them so they can survive on practically no water. Tell the local rain gods that your people will offer prayers of thanks for every day it DOESN'T rain, threaten personal violence for every day it DOES rain, and point out that the less it rains the more prayers said deity is gonna get from your enemies. Pull some impersonation-shennanigans or some connections in the Bureau of Season. BAM: welcome to drought. Your enemies die of thirst, your people are fine. Bonus points if your people burrow, and use this ability to drain enemy wells from underneath.

                    10. Teach your people a thaumaturgical ritual to ward against "Dragonblooded Exalts," and get them to adopt it as a post-hunt ritual of gratitude to the fallen prey. Anti-DB wards pop up all over your territory in COMPLETELY RANDOM locations, severely inconveniencing any DB forces passing through.

                    formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


                    • #11
                      I have thoughts about something that would interact with the need for appropriate tools for crafting projects, but am a bit uncertain about it on account of how abstract that need is in the first place. I suppose they could have something like Craftsman Needs No Tools, even down to the boosted time, while existing in a cascade with a significantly different mechanical and thematic direction than Solar Craft.

                      ​Like, I read Craftsman Needs No Tools as existing in a place of a Solar whose expertise is such that certain minor creative projects are almost trivial, whereas for Lunars I would see it as being in a place of having an option to pull together something desperately needed circumstantially in a matter of moments. I'm not saying they would be limited to using the Charm like that, rather that it would be something that would emerge naturally both from their established place in the setting and by virtue of what they don't have.

                      ​There's the fact that overall, the crafting system they went with was one in which the significance of infrastructure is underplayed mechanically. It's presumed from how the conditions for projects are described and the general tone of the setting, but the mechanics rest primarily on differentiating scope of various crafting endeavours and requiring them to narratively build on one another. The Lunars biggest problem isn't what infrastructure that they have, it's whether or not they'll have Charms that will make it easier to handle things related to crafting slots, coloured experience, and the terminus to extended crafting rolls.

                      I'll say more later I need to post this now

                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        The Lunars biggest problem isn't what infrastructure that they have, it's whether or not they'll have Charms that will make it easier to handle things related to crafting slots, coloured experience, and the terminus to extended crafting rolls.
                        I've had thoughts on this, though I would need to dig up my notes. Which I currently should not do, as I have much studying and programming to accomplish while the sun is high.

                        But this is definitely a subject I would love to discuss later, in a separate thread related to Lunar Mental-Attribute Charms, and how they might have a single inter-connected tree for concepts like that Solar "master heist scheming prana" and crafting. If a Lunar can more easily put together a heist, perhaps he can also more easily design an artifact? Might these capabilities grow out of a Charm which allows them to always remember anything, regardless of forgetfulness, the mist of years, or memory-altering magic?

                        formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami


                        • #13
                          All right, so to continue what I said about this point:

                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          The Lunars biggest problem isn't what infrastructure that they have, it's whether or not they'll have Charms that will make it easier to handle things related to crafting slots, coloured experience, and the terminus to extended crafting rolls.
                          ​I don't really think they should. Maybe a few things to craft a bit better than a mortal would, but particularly not things that overturn assumptions about how many magical things have been made in the Second Age. Thus, it's not a matter of Lunars being unable to make anything, just the natural assumption that they've not made much if they have to follow the base Artifact and Wonder crafting rules.

                          ​Partially because I don't think it's something as natural to them when they don't have Charms extending out of the Craft Ability, and partially because it's not something I see being a particular forte of their characteristics.

                          ​When it comes to Lunar exclusive infrastructure, well, I like the image that John and Holden initially put forward of the idea that there isn't really anything that can be made exclusive for them, so they'd wind up making things that would become significant targets for being claimed by their enemies.

                          ​That and how I like the image of savagery and struggle for the Lunars of the Age of Sorrows. Over something that has been elaborately made exclusive for Lunars, I would prefer an image of them living in a world where access to a lot of things that would make creating and restoring magical wonders are something that they have to beg, steal, borrow and barter for, as well as occasions where the thing is "exclusive" because the Lunar made it hard to access and killed everybody else who knew about it. Even then, I would picture a world where such things need to be used sparingly, for reasons like it only running on enough fuel to get a few more goes out of it, or where using it would light it up to a lot of forces that would either be hostile to them or want to take it for themselves. I don't think a Lunar should have powers that repair their broken daiklave on the fly, but a personality and social context in which they keep an ancient forge hidden (and probably somewhere that it is a lot easier for a Lunar to access than others would, even if it's hardly impossible to be followed), which they reserve for emergencies such as broken daiklave because using it risks compromising its secrecy.

                          ​When it comes to things such as creating nifty spaces to meet or communicate through, I would see that less in terms of something exclusive to Lunars, and more like sorcery that Lunars are applying in a manner particularly fitting to their common dilemmas.

                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.


                          • #14
                            In my games, I tend to run with the idea that a lot of Lunar "infrastructure" tends to be organic in nature. Lots of plants and animals that negate the need for things like large scale trading routes and the like.

                            For example, a Lunar might create a grove of trees that grow swords which are enchanted to attack anyone but the Lunar and select followers who get close to them. So the Lunar and his followers can go around doing other stuff, and then once or twice a year they come to the grove and collect a bunch of swords that have been grown. They don't need to build forges or mine for iron or anything else. Even if Dragon Blooded (or someone else) found the grove, there isn't much they could do with it. The trees would tend to attack them, so the only thing they could do would be to hack them all down. And even if they did that the Lunar, with appropriate Charms or other magic, could probably quickly regrow the trees within a season or two.

                            You can't really destroy the Lunar's infrastructure since they can often create new infrastructure as fast as their old stuff gets destroyed.

                            This is just one example, but for the most part Lunar infrastructure simply isn't terribly useful for the Dragon Blooded (or anyone else really). In fact, a lot of the time Dragon Blooded tend to find this stuff and not even realize that it is Lunar infrastructure. They find the Sword Tree Grove and write it off as a weird Wyld place without figuring out its true nature.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              All right, so to continue what I said about this point:
                              Levi, did you read what I said about how I felt that subject wasn't on-topic for this thread?

                              Thanks to sorcerous workings and the fact that Lunar Exalted can be Celestial Circle Sorcerors, Lunar crafting Charms aren't necessary to create any of these infrastructural marvels, and these marvels are still useful regardless of whether Lunars ever have crafting Charms. They're two different subjects!

                              Did you only post in this thread to ultimately say that you don't think these ideas have a right to exist?

                              formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami