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  • #16
    Something odd to me is this all begs a question that Lunars need special snowflake infrastructure. The "live off the land" insurgent vibe I get with them in 3e is something that, to some extent, is thematically antithetical to infrastructure. Lunars are still able to do sorcerous workings like other Exalts can. And it's not like Solars magically have infrascture Charms unique to them.

    What the hell is even meant by infrastructure in this case, why do Lunaes need to ahve it and so on? I might have missed this in the original thread, but there's a premise to it that I sense similar to a lot of 2e Lunar issues: Solars have something, Lunars need some equivilant for parity. Except Solars really don't have that thing (at least in a sense that it is something the First Age itself provided in a nebulous sense beyond what Charms can do) and I am not sure the thing is something that fits Lunars to have a special snowflake version of.

    And stuff.


    And stuff.
    Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Blaque View Post
      Something odd to me is this all begs a question that Lunars need special snowflake infrastructure.
      Sort of. On one hand, there are only, what, 300 Lunars? Maybe a bit more, but not a huge number of them. Lunar-specific infrastructure (in the sense that it's designed for the exclusive use of Lunar Exalted in particular) isn't really a major thing. There might be a few artifacts or manses intended for Lunar essence, but mostly it's not how Lunars work. (Even Solar-specific infrastructure is incredibly rare - I can only think of two pieces, one of which has been explicitly hacked by a DB - and it only really exists because Solars ruled the world for a long time, combined with having a lot of raw power.) And anyway, everyone can get splat-specific evocations and the like now if they want them just by branching them off of their native charms. That can apply to really big stuff, too.

      However, on the other hand, many of the examples seem to be less about Lunar-specific infrastructure directly, and more about Beastman specific infrastructure (which is generally, though not always, more useful to Lunars since they're more likely to be leading beastmen.) Beastman-specific infrastructure is absolutely a thing and makes logical sense. Even then, though, it might make more sense to picture it less as infrastructure designed to be beastman-specific, and more about Beastmen (and Lunars) being able to exploit their unique abilities to play fast and loose with limitations that other people face in terms of infrastructure.

      For example, beastmen who can fly or climb better than others will be much more able to exploit mountaintop regions, and they often won't bother to set up their villages or cities or supply routes in ways that baseline humans would find usable. To a certain extent Raksi's beastmen tribes are a sort of beastman-specific infrastructure; most other people would be much less productive in an environment like that. And then there's undersea beastmen and the like.



      However, with that said, my understanding is that most beastmen in environments like those are not entirely happy with being there. They're able to eke out a living, survive, and sometimes even thrive in environments that would be very hostile to baseline humans, but most of the time, they don't live there entirely by choice - and most beastmen are human enough that they would thrive much better on places like the Blessed Isle and other fertile human locations, even before you get into issues like trade routes with outsiders and so on. Many of the more extreme Beastman-specific / Lunar-specific adaptations were made out of necessity rather than by choice... Raksi's apemen might be good at living in the jungle, but they'd probably do even better if they could find some fertile farmland and settle down there, and the reality is that the reason they don't do that is because the really good places like that are held by non-beastmen humans who would kill them if they tried.

      At least, that's how I see it. There are some exceptions (beastmen so far from baseline humanity that they genuinely wouldn't do well in the places baseline humans thrive), but I tend to think that those are the exceptions and not the rules. And it's the same for Lunars: Just because Tony Stark can make a suit of armor in a cave with a box of scraps doesn't mean he prefers caves to well-stocked labs.

      The infrastructure currently held by the DBs is better. A lot better. That's part of what the Lunars are so mad over. They've found ways to cope and route around some of the problems, but the fact that the DBs took the best stuff in the Usurpation and drove the Lunars to the fringes is important to the setting, and I'd generally frame most Lunar infrastructural stuff as more "make due with what we're able to hold nowadays, which is largely inhospitable land that the Terrestrials can't easily attack" rather than "Lunars live in these unforgiving landscapes because they're better off there, go Lunars." (Some Lunars - the really pro-barbarian ones - might be drinking the kool-aid about how this harsh environment toughens them up or something, but most of them know better.)

      Sure, Lunars have made some weird stuff, or manses in really hard-to-reach locations. They haven't done that because that's the ideal way for Lunars to work, they've done it because the places of power in easy-to-reach locations are held by DBs who try to kill them on sight, and if they try to build something straightforward then the DBs will try to take it from them.

      The other reason I say that this is more about Beastman-specific infrastructure than Lunar-specific infrastructure is that really, while yeah, you can make a manse that is inhospitable to those who can't fly or breathe underwater... individual Exalts aren't going to find that more than a nuisance if they're really determined to make use of it, even before you get to the fact that eg. Lunars aren't the only Exalts who find it easy to do those things. It's much harder to find someone who can make use of a city that requires an entire population with the appropriate abilities... though even then, Creation has a lot of weird races in it, not just beastmen. Certainly we know they're far from the only people to expand underwater, say.

      Beyond that, in terms of why it's good for things to work that way... for the most part, people are supposed to be fighting over resources. Yeah, there are some things a Lunar and an army of beastmen are better at exploiting or holding. But on the whole, people want the same stuff; and on the whole, if you make something awesome there's gonna be someone who will want to take it from you. For magical stuff, even if you lock it behind a bunch of restrictions, I'd generally assume that any powerful artifact or manse can be exploited by a determined Exalt somehow, even if not in the way it was intended; and similarly, for mundane infrastructure, I'd generally try to push for the best and most useful places to be things everyone wants, rather than allowing anyone to just say "all right, our resource requirements are so bizarre that we thrive best in this tract of wasteland nobody else wants at all."

      You can survive in the wasteland (and Lunars and their beastmen have.) But the Blessed Isle is absolutely the best place to be, and most Lunars are deeply aware of that fact.
      Last edited by Aquillion; 04-16-2017, 12:12 AM.

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      • #18
        Here's my take on this:
        Lunars are fighting their "Long War" from a disadvantage in that their forces are more primitive technology-wise than their opponents; namely the DB's and societies based on the Realm model. Each new Lunar who buys into the prevalent Lunar "society" mindset (Thousand streams river and such...) essentially has to start from scratch to build up a nation or tribal group, set it up so it attacks the Realm, or at least undermines it in some way. Therefore it makes sense, at least after your forces are beaten back several times, to create something that you can fall back to (to regroup in between exploitable societies) that the Realm can't use or repurpose, something that's accessible only to you or a select few people.

        If you control an underground cave network/sanctum with working mana-tech and First Age amenities but make it so that it can't be accessed except if you go through a narrow 1 inch tunnel, then dive deep into a subterranean lake, and have the heavy, triple-reinforced, sorcery warded door open only if you can speak in the whistling tongue of a singing monkey then it is most likely secure from your enemies.

        Could someone with enough determination and raw power break into this sanctum? Of course! But by then, you should have sent out the Thundercats signal and every fraggin' ally you have is coming over to help you out. Or you can just run away to fight another day...

        So basically I'm just agreeing (sort of) with Aquillion above...

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

          Did you only post in this thread to ultimately say that you don't think these ideas have a right to exist?
          ​That is a loaded question.

          ​To answer your more neutral one, I had misread your post as saying you wanted to hear more.

          ​Also, a bit of what I wrote in the second post was just something intended for the first if I had not needed to post it too early because of computer freezing.

          That being said... no, since you've asked formally, I will reserve further discussion of this subject.


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by Japomann View Post
            Here's my take on this:
            Lunars are fighting their "Long War" from a disadvantage in that their forces are more primitive technology-wise than their opponents; namely the DB's and societies based on the Realm model. Each new Lunar who buys into the prevalent Lunar "society" mindset (Thousand streams river and such...) essentially has to start from scratch to build up a nation or tribal group, set it up so it attacks the Realm, or at least undermines it in some way. Therefore it makes sense, at least after your forces are beaten back several times, to create something that you can fall back to (to regroup in between exploitable societies) that the Realm can't use or repurpose, something that's accessible only to you or a select few people.

            If you control an underground cave network/sanctum with working mana-tech and First Age amenities but make it so that it can't be accessed except if you go through a narrow 1 inch tunnel, then dive deep into a subterranean lake, and have the heavy, triple-reinforced, sorcery warded door open only if you can speak in the whistling tongue of a singing monkey then it is most likely secure from your enemies.

            Could someone with enough determination and raw power break into this sanctum? Of course! But by then, you should have sent out the Thundercats signal and every fraggin' ally you have is coming over to help you out. Or you can just run away to fight another day...

            So basically I'm just agreeing (sort of) with Aquillion above...
            Stuff that due to the ability of Lunars to just do anatomical or mobility things DBs don't is fine by me. I think the big thing though that's implied with Lunars is that the Realm will still have the best, but for the Lunar insurgency to keep going strong, Lunars don't need the special infrastructure. They're individually powerful and can "live off the land" enough to probably get around some things that other Exatls might need, at least with things resonant with Lunars like you know, building armies or making moonsilver stuff.

            The Lunar strategy seems to be that even if the DBs can capture it and repurpose it, it won't be as good as their original stuff was and the Lunars could break that too still.

            And stuff.


            And stuff.
            Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              To answer your more neutral one, I had misread your post as saying you wanted to hear more.
              I did say I wanted to hear more about your thoughts on Lunar Charm-related crafting capabilities. Just, in a different thread that doesn't have to do with the kind of things Lunars can and might create regardless of crafting Charms.
              Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 04-16-2017, 11:38 AM.


              Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                I did say I wanted to hear more about your thoughts on Lunar Charm-related crafting capabilities. Just, in a different thread that doesn't have to do with the kind of things Lunars can and might create regardless of crafting Charms.
                Hence the misreading.

                Okay, trying to contribute to something in the spirit of this thread...

                One thing I'm thinking about now is the history of many imperialistic European nations encountering societies on other continents, whose resources might not have been as (for want of a better word) sophisticated as that possessed by industrialised European nations, but were very well calibrated for their own environments and social models. Things that often encountered a lot of hostility from Europeans owing to things like an ideology that the European way of doing things was inherently superior, without much consideration about the different needs of a different environment, and holding the idea that people who had lived in the area for a lot longer knowing more of its ins and outs in contempt.

                So I'm thinking, in the absence of more fantastical elements, what kinds of things could the Lunars foster in their allied (or exploited) societies that might present obstacles to Realm expansion, either as a matter of being most suited to social models contrary to Realm standards, or things that Realm intruders might be assumed to be incompetent at managing or replicating.

                Hmm, I'm also wondering at the idea of Lunars specifically cultivating certain societies living in a manner that makes them difficult targets for conquest by the Realm in terms of the investment in standardising them being exorbitant, but I'm a bit worried about that being a bit... appropriative, let's say.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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