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  • #31
    Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
    I find it hard to credit that the Wyld Hunt would leave them alone for that entire time, unless said Lunar was hella far away from the Realm and/or incredibly well hidden (and I'm not sure you can hide that well from the Sids).
    There are plenty of Lunars who are not going to be hiding in this edition. At all. Lunars rule non-trivial parts of Creation openly as kings and potentates.

    One of them is in the corebook, even! Jyudo Far-Flung rules a large territory that abuts a major Realm satrapy from his manse, in which he has amassed a great library. The Realm and the Sidereals 100% know he's there, they just can't get him out. They've tried. It didn't go so well.

    Jyudo doesn't seem like he's all that interested in doing something like forging a daiklave, but I'd argue that a Lunar in his position absolutely has the time and resources to do so assuming their essence can be bent to that project with any facility at all.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
      Thinking on it, if I was going to guess what craft charm Lunars DON'T get, I'd say it was Thousand Forge Hands. Because that's the "you don't need infrastructure to make artifacts" charm.
      Are we thinking about the same Charm?

      "The Exalt’s hands flow with the Essence of a thousand craftsmen; her urge is legion and her well is bottomless. When she creates a superior or legendary slot, she may use this Charm to greatly speed her efforts to begin the project (p. 239). This may be represented as the Exalt thinking, planning, and working with impossible speed. Though it cannot dictate the speed at which she gathers materials or performs tasks not directly associated with Craft, this Charm guarantees that given all such materials are provided, and all such tasks have been completed, the design and forging work that comes before she can roll to finish takes no longer than (6 - Essence) months for N/A and five dot Artifacts, and no more than (6 - Essence) weeks for all else."

      THAT Charm?

      Thousand Forge Hands does absolutely nothing to alleviate your needs for infrastructure; it demands that you have everything you need to begin, and then simply lets you get the job done quickly.

      Given that the effect is fluffed as a matter of planning and speed, I think a reduced version is perfectly acceptable for Lunar Exalted.


      And Murcushio has already refuted your other point.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        Now, like Isator Levi said: playing with the craft XP or altering the terminus is probably outside their wheelhouse.
        I agree about the terminus, but I would like you to share your logic regarding craft XP.

        If I wanted to reward Lunar Exalted for the crafting they've already done while also encouraging them to not do so much crafting in the future, giving them a version of Spirit-Stoking Elevation seems like a good idea.


        I've gone through the entire Solar Craft Charmset, and out of that massive tower I've identified only six or seven Solar Charms that I think Lunar Exalted could have with minor alteration.

        Spirit-Stoking Elevation, for the reason I just gave.

        Thousand Forge Hands, because as I already pointed out to BrilliantRain, it represents planning and speed. But it doesn't need to be NEARLY as fast as the Solar Charm, especially as it would preferably work as a general "plan faster" Charm.

        Likewise, Copper Spider Conception, which is also fluffed as good forward planning, and which is valuable to Lunars who aren't looking to make Artifacts but who still want to create mundane structures with mundane superior project slots.

        Arete-Shifting Prana, because Lunar Exalted are adaptable. Also, because they're FUCKED when it comes to buying up multiple Craft abilities, and without the other Charms that Solars get regarding maxed-out Craft Ability ratings, this would hardly break anything. If necessary, limit this Charm to affecting only Craft Abilities that deal with organic materials, like Leatherworking, Cooking, and Medicine-making. Possibly also let it key off of (or boost) your actual Medicine rating, as you use your Sewing skills to stitch up someone's wounds or your cooking skills to nurse someone back to health.

        Tireless Workhorse Method is too focused on crafting for Lunars, and too good at it. I think a Lunar version would grant, AT MOST, only one Major project slot per Essence. In return, whenever the Lunar isn't using that Major slot for anything, he reduces penalties related to multitasking. Which, of course, incentivizes the Lunar to not use the Charm for crafting at all unless he really, really needs to.

        Shattering Grasp, because the Lunar Exalted have always had Charms for breaking stuff, which I want to advance into a Charm for digging more quickly through solid stone obstructions too thick to be called "walls"; like entire mountains.


        As for other crafting XP tricks, instead of things like Brass Scales Falling, Red Anvils Ringing, or Chains Fall Away, the Lunar would get more crafting XP when they fashion trophies and tools out of the corpse of something whose Heart's Blood they took... or that the intended recipient took.


        Outside of that? I don't see a single Solar Crafting Charm that I think looks appropriate for the Lunar Exalted.
        Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 04-17-2017, 06:20 PM.


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        • #34
          Here's an example of one of my ideas. I tried to balance it against the Extra Limbs Merit. It's probably shit.


          Diligent Hive Imitation – Lunars are excellent multitaskers, as capable of juggling many thoughts as a hive is capable of handling separate simultaneous tasks.
          Cost: 5m;
          Mins: Intelligence 2, Essence 1; Type: Simple:
          Keywords: Mute; Duration: Indefinite;
          Prerequisite Charms: None

          As long as this Charm is in effect, the Lunar effectively has another major project slot for crafting. However, if he is not currently using that slot, this Charm grants an alternative bonus for combat: When the character performs a flurry, one of her actions (of the player’s choice) suffers only a -1 rather than a -3 penalty.


          An alternative that I could be happy with is that this Charm, instead, reduces the penalty for Miscellaneous actions alone. Thus does a Lunar who learns a crafting Charm become more capable of rapidly fixing or cobbling together a necessary doodad or bandaging up an ally's bleeding wounds in the middle of a fight.
          Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 04-17-2017, 09:14 PM.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
            I agree about the terminus, but I would like you to share your logic regarding craft XP.
            ​Actually, reading this first line of your post, I am suddenly struck with the notion that Charms for crafting experience could actually serve as a good means of incentivizing one to craft down particular routes by creating custom craft objectives. Say for Abyssals, rather than "this is a Solar Crafting Charm, but it only works for making things that kill, so it's technically inferior", you get "in addition to the usual objectives, you get more crafting experience for making something that fulfils the chivalry of death or some Old Law of the Underworld".

            ​So I could see something similar for Lunars; not an across the board enhancement, but something that leads into the characterization of the Lunar Exalted by making the conditions that they craft in and the purposes that they craft for something that their Charms make easier, in a manner more organic than only getting dice bonuses or tricks when they make specific things.

            ​It also occurs to me that such a thing could lead into distinct Lunar narratives for the creation of legendary projects.


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            • #36
              I would like to see Lunars being able to do amazing stuff with limited resources and be able to do great when it comes to quickly coming up with something usable or maintenance, but have a much harder time when it comes to pumping out world-shattering artefacts or huge monolithic structures. What if their charms just don´t give as much support to the higher-end project slots and focus on being able to do serviceable stuff quickly and from limited and normally unsuitable resources? Sure, it might be harder to make legendary projects than it is for Solars (and maybe even large groups of Dragonborns) - for that, perhaps there would be charms that make it possible, but in a more roundabout way.
              Last edited by 4uk4ata; 04-18-2017, 07:21 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                ​Actually, reading this first line of your post, I am suddenly struck with the notion that Charms for crafting experience could actually serve as a good means of incentivizing one to craft down particular routes by creating custom craft objectives. Say for Abyssals, rather than "this is a Solar Crafting Charm, but it only works for making things that kill, so it's technically inferior", you get "in addition to the usual objectives, you get more crafting experience for making something that fulfils the chivalry of death or some Old Law of the Underworld".

                ​So I could see something similar for Lunars; not an across the board enhancement, but something that leads into the characterization of the Lunar Exalted by making the conditions that they craft in and the purposes that they craft for something that their Charms make easier, in a manner more organic than only getting dice bonuses or tricks when they make specific things.

                ​It also occurs to me that such a thing could lead into distinct Lunar narratives for the creation of legendary projects.
                Exactly.

                Solar Exalted get crafting XP in exactly the same ways everyone else does... but MORE, and without any selective weight given to any particular basic objective.

                Other Exalted can get crafting XP in ways no one else can, and reward certain basic objectives more than others, especially by meeting ever-more-specific conditions. They can also get their own unique ways to spend crafting XP.


                What if Lunars could earn and spend craft XP for healing others or for planning a heist, but that it required filling a Major or Superior project slot for the effort? That certainly encourages them to do various clever and useful things besides crafting!


                On that note, I want to explore the possibility of putting analogues of Copper Spider Conception and Thousand Forge Hands into a general "forward-thinking / master planning" Intelligence Charm tree that allows Lunar Exalted to "prepare for success". It doesn't have a focus on building artifacts the way that Solar Craft does, but instead revolves around removing obstacles and providing solutions to much more common problems.

                I'd like to see this Charm include effects like Stealth-based Stalking Shadow Spirit (scope out a location to find the best hiding spots), Larceny-based Master Plan Meditation and Sun-Stealing Shadow Spirit, and Craft-based Ever-Ready Innovation Discipline.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by BvBPL View Post
                  I’ve found that the base craft system offers an excellent workaround for its problems. If you ignore the craft system as written and develop your own, sensible system then that seems to fix most of the craft problems.
                  This isn't really relevant to the conversation and is arguably threadcrapping. Please avoid making posts like this in the future, it isn't conducive to having a good conversation.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                    ​Actually, reading this first line of your post, I am suddenly struck with the notion that Charms for crafting experience could actually serve as a good means of incentivizing one to craft down particular routes by creating custom craft objectives. Say for Abyssals, rather than "this is a Solar Crafting Charm, but it only works for making things that kill, so it's technically inferior", you get "in addition to the usual objectives, you get more crafting experience for making something that fulfils the chivalry of death or some Old Law of the Underworld".

                    ​So I could see something similar for Lunars; not an across the board enhancement, but something that leads into the characterization of the Lunar Exalted by making the conditions that they craft in and the purposes that they craft for something that their Charms make easier, in a manner more organic than only getting dice bonuses or tricks when they make specific things.

                    ​It also occurs to me that such a thing could lead into distinct Lunar narratives for the creation of legendary projects.
                    That's definitely something I'd like to see for a number of splats' craft charms.


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                    • #40
                      "Craft-XP" Charms should especially reward Lunar Exalted for making:

                      * disguises; essentially a basic craft project
                      * forgeries and counterfeits
                      * traps
                      * hiding spaces

                      The Lunar labor / planning / crafting Charm tree should start with encouraging Lunar Exalted who are interested in that path to start casing out every place they intend to infiltrate, attack, defend, or otherwise confront others. Get Lunars to scope out the possible hiding spots, so that they can hide there or know where to look for stealthy enemies. Get Lunars to make their own hiding spots. Get Lunars to lay traps everywhere.

                      Do you really need a shiny daiklaive when a simple spike-laden pit-trap will do the job? Stack the deck! Change the rules! Fight dirty!

                      It's only after you've mastered the art of planning ahead and preparing with cheap, mundane tools that you can start planning and preparing better for the creation of Artifacts.


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                      • #41
                        PLAYING TRICKS
                        Cost: —; Mins: Intelligence 4, Essence 1
                        Type: Permanent
                        Keywords: None
                        Duration: Permanent
                        Prerequisite Charms: ???
                        This Charm expands the number of actions which count as basic crafting projects for the purpose of earning the Exalt silver crafting experience; these projects now include Larceny actions to create forgeries, counterfeits, disguises, and the concealment of evidence. The Lunar further earns an additional silver point for every basic objective she fulfills by producing such things, as well as producing hiding places, traps, and objects which are booby-trapped, poisonous, or otherwise hiding an unpleasant surprise.

                        Inspiring a character to develop or increase a negative Intimacy for the Lunar, such as due to being tricked, explicitly counts as a basic objective, and the Lunar counts that as a separate condition from any positive Intimacy he inspires or increases in a different character with the same project. Even if both Intimacies are within the same character; it is not unknown for the Lunar Exalted to earn the respect as well as the hatred of those they foil, and such relationships are often the stuff of legends.


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                        • #42
                          Continuing this trend of "Lunar Intelligence favors those who plan ahead"...

                          Where Holistic Battle Understanding allows a Solar to continue performing at his best even when completely unfamiliar with the opposing forces or its generals, the Lunar Charm could reward the Lunar Exalt for preparing ahead of time by converting the bonus dice for familiarity into bonus successes.

                          This further encourages Lunar commanders to steal out in the middle of the night as a bird or mouse, spying on the enemy and sabotaging their logistics.


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                          • #43
                            Hmmm, I'm not sure about that. I feel that actually planning is more something in the Solar thematic set. Lunars are adaptable; they should be able to do fine without planning.

                            Except maybe plans that involve the natural environment, like leading your enemies into a nest of poisonous snakes, I could something like that going on.

                            And honestly, I don't think Lunars need encouragement to go and spy and sabotage; they're great at it, so they nearly always will, probably more than Solars.

                            As to the extra craft objectives, what do you think about objectives related to materials? Like, things made out of animal parts (bones, furs, etc). That's something I remember someone suggested before.

                            Also, as well as making booby-traps, how about something about making things that help adapt to an environment?


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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              Except maybe plans that involve the natural environment, like leading your enemies into a nest of poisonous snakes, I could something like that going on.
                              I think this makes Lunars out to be too literally the "animal exalted". They aren't (only) the Exalted of wilderness. They are adaptable, and not just in the way that animals are adaptable. They should be able to function (and plan) just as well within a city than within a forest or a desert. Seven Devil Clever's Charms shouldn't be penalized for being in an aristocratic milieu, for example.

                              I remember there being discussion about having a sort of predatory intuitive intelligence, like the Alien, where you understand the purpose of things and the reactions of people without necessarily knowing anything about those things/people. That could be an interesting seed for this sort of thing.
                              Last edited by Fata-Ku; 04-20-2017, 10:02 AM.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                Hmmm, I'm not sure about that. I feel that actually planning is more something in the Solar thematic set. Lunars are adaptable; they should be able to do fine without planning.
                                That's what their non-Intelligence Charms would be for.


                                Except maybe plans that involve the natural environment, like leading your enemies into a nest of poisonous snakes, I could something like that going on.
                                I agree with Fata-Ku's rebuttal; this makes no logical or thematic sense.


                                And honestly, I don't think Lunars need encouragement to go and spy and sabotage; they're great at it, so they nearly always will, probably more than Solars.
                                You could say the same thing about Solar Crafters. Why do they have so many crafting XP Charms to encourage them to go out and craft anything and everything when they're already so good at getting crafting XP by crafting lots of things very quickly?


                                As to the extra craft objectives, what do you think about objectives related to materials? Like, things made out of animal parts (bones, furs, etc). That's something I remember someone suggested before.
                                That's been me the whole time, and I did think about it.

                                However, I think "make things out of organic materials" as an avenue for additional crafting experience is too easily abused considering that it can be stacked with other objective-enhancing Charms.

                                So, while "making things out of your Heart's Blood kills" should be a new basic object, Shaping The Once-Living Form should instead look to make you BETTER at working with organic material, rather than rewarding you for it.


                                Also, as well as making booby-traps, how about something about making things that help adapt to an environment?
                                That's not a bad idea, but you're going to need to get more specific and illustrative than that.

                                Weapons help one adapt to an environment, for example.

                                What I currently have in mind is one Charm that rewards a Lunar more for constructing shelters, and another Charm that makes them better at doing it.


                                I also want to tie Lunar Charms for breaking objects into Charms for digging, and then perhaps to working the earth to prepare it for architecture. Essentially adding "dirt and stone" to "organic materials" for the list of things Lunars can craft better, if not using exactly the same mechanics.

                                Call it, "Earth and Moon Blessing", stealing from that Second Edition Charm that let Lunars shapeshift into landscape features.
                                Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 04-20-2017, 10:23 AM.


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