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  • Yu-Shan (and Sidereal) was a mistake

    Do people here think that Sidereal-related fluff in Yu-shan is just a litttttle toxic in Ex3 ?

    First is the Loom of Fate who contribute to the notion that Exalted is a scifi setting with magic, I saw posts as far back as 2004 talking about Creation being some kind of computer with the Loom as system and the rules of nature as program, not to mention Creation being "reboot" by the Loom whenever a Calibration discussion comes up like Creation is some kind of Matrix.

    The second problem is setting creep in the vein of Primordial War/Yozi, the former means Sidereal/Heaven's influence too much of the setting, everything created by the player have to conform to the rule lay by these two, like my tea reading example, exactly how do my Bluesid see the future when the Loom and the Department of Fate exist ? Did she send mind control malware into the Maiden's head to make them change the future ? Or remotely download the log file containing the future plans ? I find it way more easy to create ancient magic fluff without the existence of Yu-Shan and the Loom of Fate

    Another kind of setting creep is similar to Autochthon i.e introducing setting facts that make Yu-Shan/Sidereal way too important, like how Auto went from designing weapon for the Exalted in the War to inventing Exaltation in the Alchemical book.

    The above combine with the fact that no other splats can come to Yu-Shan (save Eclipse) make it seems like the place only exist to justify Sidereal's importance, like the Paragon's stick whom powers are all written to explain why some Lunar hasn't wore his innards as necklace, I saw it as "Ooooh Sidereal is super duper important, they have this Loom in Heaven that control all of Creation's physical law and if it go down, so does Creation" which get on my nerve just a tiny bit.

    Normally I would ask if any of these things are a real problems and whether they will be fix in Ex3, but since I'm anti-fun Jen, I'll ask if the people want to see both Yu-Shan and Sidereal get throw into limbo, never to appear in another book ever again ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)



  • #2
    Cute picture.

    I think this is a symptom of the larger problem with Sidereal. When the book was released it was really designed for running a Sidereal game, and the idea of the Sidereal being a part of Creation and how they interacted with the rest of the setting was kind of an afterthought. This was especially noticeable with their Charms and other mechanics, which were often fucking awesome for a game of Sidereals, but not so great when it came to Sidereal interacting with the rest of Exalted - Shun the Smiling Lady was a wonderful example. Something that was cool in the hands of the PCs, but rather less so in the hands of an NPC.

    The Loom of Fate is similar. It's awesome for Sidereal PCs - "We're Creation's troubleshooters and the first and last line of defense for the future of the world." But it raises all sorts of questions and complications when it comes to the rest of the setting. In my experience, the Loom is pretty much central to a game of Sidereals, but when you're not playing Sidereals then most groups just want to pretend the Loom of Fate doesn't exist and have nothing to do with it whatsoever.

    Hopefully in 3rd edition, the dev's will spend a bit more time considering of the fundamental concepts of Sidereal Exalted and Yu-Shan and do a better job of having them work within Exalted's larger setting.

    I do have a fair amount of faith that that will happen. Holden waxed about this subject on several occasions, pointing out some of the issues with how Sidereal as a whole hadn't been designed with a lot of thought given to their interactions with the greater setting. So hopefully Vance and Minton had a few conversations with Holden about some ways to change the approach up a little bit in 3rd edition.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Jen View Post
      First is the Loom of Fate who contribute to the notion that Exalted is a scifi setting with magic, I saw posts as far back as 2004 talking about Creation being some kind of computer with the Loom as system and the rules of nature as program, not to mention Creation being "reboot" by the Loom whenever a Calibration discussion comes up like Creation is some kind of Matrix.
      ​I'd say half of that was analogies to help people conceptualise things, and the other half was people making "clever" snarky observations and running very far with them.

      ​If the idea of the future of the world being continuously written out in a constantly woven tapestry is sci-fi, then a lot of real life mythologies have been sci-fi.

      Originally posted by Jen
      The second problem is setting creep in the vein of Primordial War/Yozi, the former means Sidereal/Heaven's influence too much of the setting, everything created by the player have to conform to the rule lay by these two, like my tea reading example, exactly how do my Bluesid see the future when the Loom and the Department of Fate exist?
      To be sure, I'd say that the degree to which the future is planned, and how those plans are implemented, could do with a bit of revision.

      ​For one thing, powers to see the future in any form are always tricky in RPGs, never mind when there's supposed to be a planning committee.

      ​At the moment, I would say that Sidereal precognition can take two forms; looking through multiple possibilities so that they can steer the course of the world into desired ones, and seeing the possibility that is most likely to happen at any given time, which will often include a lot of the agenda of Heaven.

      Originally posted by Jen
      The above combine with the fact that no other splats can come to Yu-Shan (save Eclipse) make it seems like the place only exist to justify Sidereal's importance
      ​Well, the gods still have to live somewhere.

      Anybody can go to Yu-Shan; there are challenges, but that's what games are about.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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      • #4
        Also, don't forget about the Carnival of Meetings.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Jen View Post
          Normally I would ask if any of these things are a real problems and whether they will be fix in Ex3, but since I'm anti-fun Jen, I'll ask if the people want to see both Yu-Shan and Sidereal get throw into limbo, never to appear in another book ever again ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)
          So, I fucking love Sidereals. But I agree with many of your concerns- albiet, I came at them from another direction.

          One of the impetuses I had for Where Fate Has Led was pondering- how to make the Sleepwalker and the Getimians antagonists but not 'Destroy Creation!' villains.

          Assuming that Rakan Thulio's plan really is the destruction of Fate, including the Loom of Fate, that meant that Creation could not be contingent on the Loom of Fate.

          At the same time, to make the Sidereals compelling, Destiny had to mean *something*, had to propose a thesis that was worth defending- and that thesis could not be 'OR ELSE YOU ALL DIE!', which is really... just dull.

          Which is what led to Destiny = the plans of Heaven which keep the Gods in line; No Destiny = Gods Do Whatever the Fuck They Want = Bad Times for Lots of People.

          All of which is to say... toxic? I don't know about that. And a Creation that doesn't have mysterious heaven-blessed sages acting in the shadows for the Greater Good (the greater good) is a poorer Creation.
          But I agree that Heaven and the Sidereals should act as an enriching element, not as a neccesary one.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by wastevens View Post

            Assuming that Rakan Thulio's plan really is the destruction of Fate, including the Loom of Fate, that meant that Creation could not be contingent on the Loom of Fate.
            It seems worth noting that Creation has never been contingent on the Loom in previous editions; Creation existed just fine before the Autochton created the Loom and the Maidens all did their jobs by hand, as it were.

            For that matter Creation existed just fine before the Maidens when it was just the Titans making whatever the hell they wanted and tossing it into their sandbox.

            The Loom has been portrayed as a profound tool that interacts with the weirdest and most mysterious entities in Creation in strange ways that not even they probably don't fully understand, and which does much good for a world that would probably be hurt immensely by its absence if it stopped functioning. But it has never been some kind of linchpin without which Creation implodes. I don't see any reason why they'll change that in 3e.


            "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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            • #7
              I've said it before: the first thing that popped into my mind when I learned about the 3E "soft reset" on the setting was "Oh awesome, I am absolutely kicking the Sidereals out of Yu-Shan." Having them live and work there positions them as looking down at Creation from Heaven. That's a mistake because it's all backwards. It grounds them in this weird alien outsider perspective which leads to the dramatic narratives of Sidereal stories being on some level divorced from those of every single other Exalt type. I look at them as they were in 2E and see more in common with Alchemicals than with the other Chosen, and I don't like that one bit.

              I want my Sidereals to live and act in the world they're in charge of. In my opinion everything that they ever accomplished in the setting is made that much more awesome if they had to do it from within Creation instead of from their cushy corner offices on the twenty-eighth floor of 108 Yu-Shan Place or whatever, drawing Salary and filing reports in triplicate. Fuck that. I want my secret kung-fu Illuminati to earn their reputation.


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              • #8
                I agree with most of what Jen has put forward here. Sidereals was a pretty bad splat and ultimately the most toxic for the line, I believe... well beyond the often-most-reviled member of our little Exalted community, Lunars.

                And I believe this happened largely because the 1e splats were doing double-duty as setting books! Abyssals essentially introduced and defined the Underworld, which was only nebulously described in previous supplements, and Sidereals did the same thing for Yu-Shan. Since so much of the book was dedicated to Yu-Shan anyway, it made sense to integrate Sidereals tightly with the material presented in the same book.

                ... only, this leads to my biggest problem with Sidereals, which is...

                SIDEREALS DON"T INTEGRATE.

                Sidereals live in a game about Yu-Shan which is parallel to the rest of the game the other Exalted play in. Lemme quote Anubis briefly...

                Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                The Loom of Fate is similar. It's awesome for Sidereal PCs - "We're Creation's troubleshooters and the first and last line of defense for the future of the world." But it raises all sorts of questions and complications when it comes to the rest of the setting. In my experience, the Loom is pretty much central to a game of Sidereals, but when you're not playing Sidereals then most groups just want to pretend the Loom of Fate doesn't exist and have nothing to do with it whatsoever.
                I'd be willing to bet from my anecdotal survey?... that 99% of groups don't really use much of the Sidereals book, at all. Now, exceptions exist. Sometimes you've got a person who really wants to play a Sidereal PC, so they join the party, and that's great to have charm support for. Other times, you're actually playing a Sidereal based game entirely so Yu-Shan is very important.

                But beyond that? For the vast, vast majority of tables, Sidereals serves one purpose - to describe and stat up the mysterious gandalf figure (Who, by the way, you aren't supposed to actually fight!) who sends you on your Ultimate Quest. Nobody wants to worry about Yu-Shan and Fate when they are creating ancient ruins. Nobody wants to wonder how many Astrology bonus points a given community has. It all gets ignored.

                It's a waste.

                Imagine for a second another take - a version of Sidereals similar to other Exalts in placement and theme. Imagine fate Exalts that wander Creation doing the bidding of heaven and serving fate, but not PERSONALLY working for the GOD OF FATE coding the Matrix. Imagine them dealing with the strange and oftentimes sanity-twisting demands of being Heaven's chosen agent on Earth.

                Sidereal Exalted without residence in Heaven, bound by allegiance to political groups that interpret the whisperings of Fate and act behind-the-scenes to ensure the dictates of Yu-Shan... which they RARELY SEE in this interpretation. Trips to Yu-Shan become exotic glimpses behind the curtain - much as they are for the other Exalted.

                Anyway, my final point is, the entire Sidereal splat is written in a way that makes them massively unproductive for most game tables. I really hope 3e does a lot to remystify fate and turn it into less of a 'MatrixCorp'. I also hope that it brings the focus of Sidereals back to Creation, which... honestly... is what they were told to take care of anyway, and would make them much easier to integrate into the story of Creation without constructing a whole weird parallel game for them.

                I understand many of these aspects of Sidereals are somewhat fundamental to the DNA of them and so I doubt we'll see any real significant change. Momentum is a thing! But since the thread is about looking in the rear-view, I thought I'd offer my thoughts on why Sidereals is somehow at the same time the most useless AND most toxic splat.

                And note, I actually like the STORY of the Sids... it's just the usability at the table, and the 'thinking out the implications of all this', that gets sticky.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ferryman View Post
                  It grounds them in this weird alien outsider perspective which leads to the dramatic narratives of Sidereal stories being on some level divorced from those of every single other Exalt type.
                  See, that's why I like them. Sidereals should be weird, they should be alien, they should sometimes act in ways that seem completely nonsensical and illogical, and they should be a bit removed from the actual goings-on in Creation.

                  I want my Sidereals to live and act in the world they're in charge of.
                  The vast majority of them do. You're Flanderizing the entire splat into a Flanderized version of Chejop Kejak. Most Sidereals aren't four and a half thousand year old elders, and even Kejak as the quintessential "Ivory Tower in Yu-Shan" Sidereal is still heavily invovled in the day-to-day running of the Realm.

                  Originally posted by Piff View Post
                  ... only, this leads to my biggest problem with Sidereals, which is...

                  SIDEREALS DON"T INTEGRATE.
                  Sidereals are the easiest to integrate into any game. I can integrate a Sidereal into a Realm game a hell of a lot easier than a Lunar or Solar.

                  Anyway, my final point is, the entire Sidereal splat is written in a way that makes them massively unproductive for most game tables.
                  Game material you don't use is useless to your game: more at 11. That's like complaining that everything written about Lookshy is useless if you're not running a Scavenger Lands game.

                  I'd be willing to bet from my anecdotal survey?... that 99% of groups don't really use much of the Sidereals book, at all.
                  My own anecdotal survey is that 100% of Exalted groups use Sidereal material heavily. Including games that a) I was not running and b) I was not playing a Sidereal in, before anyone says anything. So yeah, we're kinda at an impasse here.

                  I really hope 3e does a lot to remystify fate and turn it into less of a 'MatrixCorp'.
                  This is a funny statement, given that Sidereals are and have always been the splat most heavily stepped in mysticism and symbolism.

                  ...I thought I'd offer my thoughts on why Sidereals is somehow at the same time the most useless AND most toxic splat.
                  You say this about a game that has Solars? Really? About the splat that, for two editions now, the game has been explicitly saying "No, you can't interact with (the Great Contagion/Deandsor/Gremlin Syndrome/Insert Your Favorite Setting Element Here) because we need to reserve that for Solars?" I find that far, far more toxic than anything Sidereals have done.


                  Have you ever read a Coik post before, man? lol
                  -Holden

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ferryman View Post
                    I've said it before: the first thing that popped into my mind when I learned about the 3E "soft reset" on the setting was "Oh awesome, I am absolutely kicking the Sidereals out of Yu-Shan." Having them live and work there positions them as looking down at Creation from Heaven.
                    Except "the Sidereals" do not live and work in Yu-Shan. Only a tiny minority of them do so. The vast majority of them do the vast majority of their work in Creation and most of them de facto live there because of said work. Even Chejop Kejak doesn't actually live in Yu-Shan, I don't think.

                    Yu-Shan is also not above Creation, either literally or metaphorically. Yu-Shan is just where the some of the Gods live and do their jobs. They certainly think they're the shit. So do people who live in the Realm.
                    I want my Sidereals to live and act in the world they're in charge of.
                    The Sidereals have never been in charge of the world either in theory or in practice.

                    That's a mistake because it's all backwards. It grounds them in this weird alien outsider perspective which leads to the dramatic narratives of Sidereal stories being on some level divorced from those of every single other Exalt type.
                    God damn near every Exalt type has a default perspective that on same level divorces their stories and narratives from those of every single other Exalt type, and some of those perspectives are weird alien outsider ones. This is deliberate design; in fact, 3e is adding more Exalt types with weird alien outside perspectives in the form of the Liminals, the Getimians, and arguably the Exigents.

                    If you hate it, that's fine, but that means you hate a feature, not a bug. And man, if you hate the Sidereals because they have a weird outsider perspective, you must loathe the Abyssals.

                    I want my secret kung-fu Illuminati to earn their reputation.
                    The Illuminati part of the Sidereals has always been their hobby, not their job. They're magical civil servants. More to the point, they're magical politicians. That's the point. That's always been the point.

                    It is one thing to say "I don't like what the Sidereals have been; I think the concepts behind them are wrongheaded and fundamentally flawed." But you seem to be approaching them as having failed at something they've never actually even tried to do.


                    "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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                    • #11
                      None of the Sidereals I have known ever used astrology. Sometimes they used Fate as a motivator, but it was always in an abstract, Foundation-esque "this is the future we're steering towards" kind of way, not an "SO IT WAS WRITTEN, SO IT SHALL COME TO PASS!" kind of way. The Loom, Pattern-spiders and everything else to do with destiny was basically window-dressing.

                      The challenge, I suppose, is to find a way for Sidereals to continue having access to secret knowledge without having the source of that knowledge be something that removes Creation's essential mysteries. My preferred solution is for the Loom to be a product of oracles, rather than all-seeing eyes, and for Sidereals to be something like psychohistorians trying to guide Creation down what they believe to be an optimal path. But that's not really the stance the books have taken up to this point.
                      Last edited by semicasual; 04-17-2017, 01:20 PM.


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                      • #12
                        My experience with Sidereals has been so different than most of the other posters here. I don't see any issues with the Loom of Fate screwing with actual Exalted games. However, I now see the Loom as a Tool to gather information and a conduit to fuck with individuals on the loom rather then the physics engine of Creation.

                        Issues with Sidereal Integration I have run into:

                        1. Shitty Pre-Game Resplendent Destiny Rolls. I was planning on using my Sorcerer RD as the identity to interact with the other non-Sidereal PCs. Instead I got a really bad roll and no points to spend on duration. The RD would have lasted a month. A simple House Rule of a free RD at Character Creation fixes this.

                        2. Paranoid players. I was in a game where my fellow Sidereal player wanted to play a Hidden Sidereal passing as mortal. I had no preference one way or another, so I went a long with this idea. The other players were fine with having two "mortals" among them, but one player keyed in on taking the "Maidens" name in vain and used that as evidence we were both Sidereals.

                        3. Knowledge of Sidereals in Creation. Everyone loves a good conspiracy as long as their PCs know about it. It's gotten to the point when I join an Exalted game, I always clarify with the ST and players what is known about Sidereals in the setting. I've gotten wildly different answers:

                        "If you have Lore 5, you have come across some information about Sidereals"

                        "Lore 5 isn't going to give you any knowledge about Sidereals due to Arcane Fate"

                        "If you are a Dynast DB, you know about Sidereals"

                        "Lunars know about Sidereals thanks to their Oral tradition of passing knowledge."

                        "Solars Remember Sidereals in their First Age Memories because the Jade Prison protects them from Arcane Fate."


                        My personal preference for dealing with Sidereal Knowledge is this:

                        If you live in Creation, you don't know shit about Sidereals, unless you have personally had a Sidereal reveal themselves to you. Arcane Fate erases all written information and erodes any second hand stories about Sidereals. Lunars are an exception. I head canon Lunars have a ritualistic way of passing down information about Sidereals similar to how the Adem pass on the Legend of the Chandrian in Wise Man's Fear.

                        If you live in Yu-Shan and do not work for the Bureau of Destiny, the Sidereals are basically the MiB. There are rumors of Chosen of the Maidens who work for the Bureau of Destiny, but no proof such Exalts exist. High level officials in Yu-Shan and those who work for the Bureau of Destiny know about Sidereals.


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                        • #13
                          I came expecting chibi-Jenna Moran memery and was equally or more pleasantly surprised by the comic I found instead... Was not disappoint at all.

                          Re: Loom of Fate, I think Isator has said it first and better than I would've (I might've not put clever in quotes, mind). The "Sys-Admin of Fate" style is a bit fanon. Albeit one somewhat reinforced by the role Autochthon, General Bossman of Even Vaguely Mechanical Stuff, was given in the process of the Pattern Spiders and Loom, but that's easy to walk back.

                          I do kind of feel like on a personal level I might prefer a much more minimal, less overbearing, less satirical and less anachronistic Yu Shan and Bureau of Fate to the maximalist version that came in with the Sidereals first splat book presentation (past posts to not repeat myself - http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...790#post875790 / http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...173#post899173).

                          With prediction and powers, to the extent their powerset is about prediction (and a lot of it is much about influencing fate rather than predicting it), it is really tricky. I think you want them to have powers to forsee problems others don't, but in a way that spurs them to action rather than cuts off Sidereals (or worse, everyone in the setting as a whole) from having to respond to the problem and make choices. Prediction finds opportunities to show off skill and solve problems, more than prediction solving problems for you. You can have some of prediction solving problems, and Sidereals probably need some prediction that directly solves problems, but seems like it can easily become the unopposable all power if it goes rampant. You also don't want them to be able to predict other PC's actions in ways that strongly limit their choice, or predict NPCs in ways that categorically limit the ability of NPCs to oppose, render aid, etc. There's a bit of a framework already there with 3e's Solar Lore Charms (Facts, etc).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                            Except "the Sidereals" do not live and work in Yu-Shan. Only a tiny minority of them do so. The vast majority of them do the vast majority of their work in Creation and most of them de facto live there because of said work. Even Chejop Kejak doesn't actually live in Yu-Shan, I don't think.
                            Originally posted by Coik View Post
                            The vast majority of them do. You're Flanderizing the entire splat into a Flanderized version of Chejop Kejak. Most Sidereals aren't four and a half thousand year old elders, and even Kejak as the quintessential "Ivory Tower in Yu-Shan" Sidereal is still heavily invovled in the day-to-day running of the Realm.
                            Nah, this is just totally wrong. A Sidereal is a salaried employee of heaven with a residence and obligations that keep them there nearly 24/7. In fact, in order to have time off, you literally may degenerate your salary background as per the rules on page 55 of Sids 2e. You might get to Creation sometimes on assignments but for the most part you literally work directly for MatrixCorp, hanging out with the deepest 'Mysteries' of Creation. Here are some quotes -

                            Pg. 53, Sids 2e -

                            'Except for those who have lost their housing privileges for some legal infraction, most Sidereals own or rent dwellings within Yu-Shan, and most Sidereals of any reputation own manses there. As legal residents of both Yu-Shan and Creation, such Sidereals may enter and leave Heaven as they please.'

                            'Every Sidereal who has not been outright banished from Yu-Shan (an extremely rare occurrence) is entitled to at least some office space within the Most Perfect Lotus of Heavenly Design.'
                            Pg 51, Sids 2e-

                            'When a Sidereal Exalts, he gains power, influence in Heaven itself, a well-paying job in the Celestial Bureaucracy... and several bosses who often have conflicting agendas and who seldom talk to each other.'
                            Pg 54, Sids 2e-

                            'Normally, a Sidereal’s Heavenly living arrangements depend on his Salary Background rating (described in Chapter Four). Even the lowliest Celestial dwellings compare well to the palaces of Creation.'

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                            • #15
                              I think it's interesting that you compared them to Autochthon, since in some ways they're similar.

                              Sidereals and Yu-Shan should be viewed by players as somewhat "optional" in the same way Autochthonia is - obviously they're not quite as out-there as Autochthonia, but they still change the setting if you focus on them, and their distance from the mundane world still makes it pretty easy to ignore them (or to reduce their impact to a single Sidereal who tags along with the group) is relatively easy. I mean, this is true of almost all splats (the only really "core" parts of the game are DBs and Solars, and even Solars are only as core as you want them to be - it's easy to ignore them if you want.)

                              Now, if someone wants to play a Sidereal, that's a bit harder, but it's not as difficult as an Alchemical - if I were writing the Sidereals book, I would make sure the storytelling chapter contains a bit on how to play a Sidereal in a mixed group while avoiding a big focus on Yu-Shan and Sidereal affairs (unless the group wants to focus on those things, of course.)

                              In the past, the Sidereals book has made that a bit more difficult than it needed to be by tying Sidereals so hard to their day job, so I would add loopholes for that, too (one idea I recall from way back is to have an old law that allows Sidereals to register themselves as an advisor or teacher to another Exalt, after which they no longer need to check in with Heaven or do regular Fate stuff.) But you could also just... make the laws on that looser, so a Sidereal can wander off and the worst that will happen is that they stop getting their salary and might not be able to rely on support or resources from Heaven and other Sidereals as much on account of being viewed as a flake.

                              Also, while Yu-Shan changes the tone of the game and isn't always appropriate to focus on, it's not like every part of it does so to the same degree. Yu-Shan as a mysterious spirit world filled with scheming gods who have largely defaulted on their duties to Creation doesn't really break anything.

                              And some of the problems with the Loom of Fate (as exemplified in the comic) don't come from the Loom itself but from players and sometimes writers overthinking it or trying to connect stuff to it that didn't need that connection. Beyond a certain point you have to accept the Loom as a handwave - it's something Sidereals can invoke dramatically to make their charms and missions and powers seem cool; it's not something that is ever going to stand up to extreme scrutiny. And even if it could, you wouldn't want to go that route, because - like obsessing over the Yozis - fixating on the Loom of Fate would eventually detract from Sidereals themselves. As it sort of did in 2e, where Outside of Fate - which started as a way to explain why Sidereals missed a few key events that the plot required them to miss - metastasized into this huge all-consuming thing. So I feel the best thing to do is to limit references to the Loom to a few specific areas. That is... there are certain rituals and things you know you can do with it, and certain things it requires, and you sometimes invoke it the same way Doctor Strange invokes the Eye of Agamotto or something - but it's not there to be explained or to make sense. This is a story about Sidereals, not a story about the Loom. Beyond a certain point you just have to accept that Fate is more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff.

                              I mean, you wouldn't ask a Sorcerer's player to explain how their magic works, or a Craft master to explain how their artifacts work. Fate is a handwave. The game can set some vague basic rules so it works consistently, but you're not going to get more than that out of it (and you shouldn't press for more, because first, it's not going to hold up, and second, even if you could map its logic out to the extent that it did hold up, it wouldn't be good for the game or for Sidereals. Again, look at what came from trying to map out even something as basic as inside / outside fate.)
                              Last edited by Aquillion; 04-19-2017, 06:18 PM.

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