Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Yu-Shan (and Sidereal) was a mistake

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

    A lot of it comes down to perception. The more word count you devote to something, the more important that subject feels to the splat. When the Sidereals book spends the bulk of its setting-focused word count describing Yu-Shan, and Sidereal's interactions with Yu-Shan, and a fairly small amount of word count describing Sidereal's releationships with Creation proper, then it makes Yu-Shan feel central to the Sidereal game experience, and what they actually do in Creation a bit of an afterthought.

    So I'm not saying get rid of Yu-Shan from the Sidereal book, but unlike 1st and 2nd edition, I hope 3rd edition spends more word count in putting Creation front and center in the Sidereal story line. Because in the earlier editions, Creation tended to come off as just a place you go to do missions before you come back to your "real" home, Yu-Shan, where all of the important Sidereal stuff happens. And I don't think that creating the perception of Creation as secondary and of less importance was good for the Sidereal Exalted or the rest of the setting.

    Spending a lot of time talking about Yu-Shan, and making it feel like that's the central core for Sidereals is, much like the Loom of Fate, or the philosophy behind Sidereal Charms, or how Sidereal are "The Super Exalted" who do everything is awesome in a Sidereal focused game. But ultimately most games take place in Creation - it's supposed to be the center of Exalted after all, and this means that the Sidereal book (like every other book with the exception of Alchemicals) needs to make the primary goal, "Make sure this group fits into Creation." How they fit into other worlds might be interesting, if there's enough room to discuss it, but how a given group fits into Creation is the most important factor.

    Ultimately the Sidereal book needs to be approached with the idea that the Sidereal are simply another type of Exalted. The authors need to focusing on ensuring that the setting fluff and mechanics smoothly integrate into the rest of the setting, and remember that Creation is the most important primary setting piece in Exalted. Making Creation feel secondary or of less importance should be something that should absolutely be avoided.
    I think you're putting the cart before the horse, to be honest. You can't really control "perception", because people take away different stuff from what's written. The statements that were previously mentioned of Sidereal being all about Yu-Shan are anecdotal and there are anecdotes from people who didn't come away with that perception.

    What should be done is a thorough analysis of what needs to be gone into in order to present a cohesive structure by which Sidereal characters and games are supported with as many tools as possible for the players.

    Creation isn't a character. It's a setting in which to tell stories inside. And the Sidereal book should be all about Sidereals. One of those things should be how Sidereals engage and interact with Creation,because that is a major setting. The Sidereals book should also cover how Sidereals interact with Malfeas, the Wyld, etc, because there are devoted Conventions that cover important aspects from each of those locations and players need to have the tools that help them tell the stories they want to explore.

    The primary goal is not "Make sure this group fits into Creation." It should be "Make sure this group is fun to play as."

    The devs will have a set word count and they'll have to figure out what words are going where. And if the assumption holds that the Sidereals are still agents of the Bureau of Destiny, then it is a simple and unavoidable fact that the Bureau of Destiny needs to be covered by that word count. Otherwise, you're establishing an important character element without giving the players the tools to engage with it.

    For information I would really appreciate about Creation from the Sidereals book? I want to know what each of the five directional Conventions do in Creation. I want to know what each of the Castes provide in their services to Creation as agents of Fate, and I want to know what the Bureau of Destiny does for Creation, along with its departments. After that? I'm pretty done with Creation, there.

    What else would you want about Creation there? Because if it's not focused on Sidereals, there's a huge question as to why it is in the book that's about Sidereals.

    Comment


    • #62
      I really just want a whole bunch of example missions. Examples that encompass the wide range of Sidereal play styles. Maybe a James Bond type mission (Endings), a Courtly Intrigue Mission (Serenity), travel guide missions (Journeys), manipulate two countries to go to war (Battles) a travel to this out of the way place and pluck a flower because Jupiter says so mission (Secrets).



      Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

      The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Paradim View Post
        The primary goal is not "Make sure this group fits into Creation." It should be "Make sure this group is fun to play as."
        You want a given splat to be fun to play, but the other goal, that is just as important, is that the splat should also make the game as a whole more fun to play as well. Sidereal were awesome to play as in 1st edition. But they really raised a lot of problems with the greater setting that I think ended up hurting the Exalted line. Infernals are another example of a splat that I feel was designed to be fun to play but at the cost of the greater game. Some of the themes and ideas they brought to the gameline ended up, in retrospect, being pretty bad.

        Infernals are similar to Sidereal in some ways. Yes, they have big mansions in Malfeas, just like Sidereal have apartments in Yu-Shan. And Infernals have coworkers who live in Malfeas, just like Sidereal have coworkers who like in YuShan. And both Infernals and Sidereal spend time in their respective worlds. But the focus should be on what they are doing in Creation. When the game spends too much time and word count dealing with metaphysics or issues related to other worlds, it makes what is happening in Creation seem far less important or relevant. And one of the specific design goals laid out by Holden and Morke was, "Make Creation matter more."

        When creating a splat for a game, the goal should always on making the game as a whole fun, and not giving a single splat a really neat set of mechanics or a really neat setting or a really neat storyline that it ends up coming at the cost of the greater game.

        A lot of this comes down to perception, and I feel that there is a lot you can do to shape perception. If you spend a lot of word count describing how important something is, then people will naturally come away thinking it's important. If you don't spend much time talking about it, then people won't care very much. Compare the way people thought about the Yozi back in 1st edition with what they thought about them at the end of 2nd edition for example.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

          You want a given splat to be fun to play, but the other goal, that is just as important, is that the splat should also make the game as a whole more fun to play as well. Sidereal were awesome to play as in 1st edition. But they really raised a lot of problems with the greater setting that I think ended up hurting the Exalted line. Infernals are another example of a splat that I feel was designed to be fun to play but at the cost of the greater game. Some of the themes and ideas they brought to the gameline ended up, in retrospect, being pretty bad.

          Infernals are similar to Sidereal in some ways. Yes, they have big mansions in Malfeas, just like Sidereal have apartments in Yu-Shan. And Infernals have coworkers who live in Malfeas, just like Sidereal have coworkers who like in YuShan. And both Infernals and Sidereal spend time in their respective worlds. But the focus should be on what they are doing in Creation. When the game spends too much time and word count dealing with metaphysics or issues related to other worlds, it makes what is happening in Creation seem far less important or relevant. And one of the specific design goals laid out by Holden and Morke was, "Make Creation matter more."

          When creating a splat for a game, the goal should always on making the game as a whole fun, and not giving a single splat a really neat set of mechanics or a really neat setting or a really neat storyline that it ends up coming at the cost of the greater game.

          A lot of this comes down to perception, and I feel that there is a lot you can do to shape perception. If you spend a lot of word count describing how important something is, then people will naturally come away thinking it's important. If you don't spend much time talking about it, then people won't care very much. Compare the way people thought about the Yozi back in 1st edition with what they thought about them at the end of 2nd edition for example.
          I've given you an argument, though, on why providing information about Yu-Shan can be used to make Creation relevant.

          Yu-Shan does not exist in an isolated bubble. It's context is entirely driven by Creation and the events that occur in Creation. Take note that in the past editions, the Bureau of Destiny specifically created a Convention focused on the Deathlords. Why? Because the Deathlords are impacting Creation. If the Deathlords just stayed in the Underworld, the Bureau of Destiny would just leave them alone. This is just one example as to how the nature of Yu-Shan brings Creation to the forefront. The Bureau of Destiny is incredibly focused on Creation. Other Bureaus of Yu-Shan are focused on Creation as well. God's are focused on Creation. The Gods that matter in Yu-Shan all have ties to Creation. The gods that don't have ties to Creation don't matter, they're described as unemployed and all striving to find something to be a god about.

          It all comes back to Creation. Yu-Shan isn't a setting that is defined by being separated from Creation, like Autochthonia is. It's defined by Creation and by the relation its inhabitants have with Creation.

          Its less a separate dimension and more an exclusive mega city. You could put Yu-Shan on top of the Imperial Mountain and nothing would really be changed. And the beauty of it lies in its exclusiveness. For games that have no interest in what Yu-Shan brings to the table, it can be completely ignored and you can have the Terrestrial Courts be all you need for your godly requirements.

          Yu-Shan doesn't need to be de-emphasized in order to "Make Creation Matter More". What needs to be done is provide depth to how Yu-Shan matters to Creation and what Creation means to Yu-Shan, and you're right in the ballpark of making Creation matter more.

          You can't separate the two. You can't lessen one without devaluing the other. They're tied to each other, unless you want to get rid of some very core concepts that have been in place since the beginning, like having a Celestial Bureaucracy which has mythological roots from Asia. Or the limited numbers of Sidereal, which the previous Devs stated wouldn't be changing, as without the Gates of Yu-Shan, it is extremely difficult to have 100 Sidereals being able to get around the map to do their jobs.

          Yu-Shan provides significant benefits to the Sidereal Exalted. Not just in stuff like having a job, but in fundamental ways that actually enable the Sidereal Exalted to be what they are as a core concept.

          Creation should be awesome and fun to play in. But stealing the heat from Yu-Shan, and playing down what Yu-Shan means to the Sidereal Exalted, is a really bad way to build hype.

          Its also completely unnecessary.

          Comment


          • #65
            There should be enough wordcount dedicated to Yu-Shan, because in my opinion it is part and parcel of the Sidereal experience. But I wager a full circle of Sidereals is more the exception than the rule, so yes, most players will be spending most of their time in Creation with the rest of the players, who will likely not be Sidereals. I hope they acknowledge this fact about mixed circle and in the other splats focus more on how to make them all work together, and what makes them unique.

            A detailed description of Yu-Shan is therefore not something I expect to find in the Sidereal rulebook. However, office/convention/faction politics, audits, superior intel, gear and, above all, oversight and orders are what gives them a unique play experience. You are most certainly not a lone wolf out in the world to change it to suit your needs and wants, but part of a greater organization. Yu-Shan represents all that and I fully expect my Sidereal PC's to regularly go there to touch base, so the splat book ought to give you enough information to your storyteller and the players to make this happen.

            So, in short I agree that Yu-Shan must be important, but for starters more in a supporting role. Fleshing it out fully and turning it into a potential focus for your campaign can wait until later. If people want that there's always the 2e sourcebook.

            Comment


            • #66
              What I want from Yu-Shan is a place that does NOT come across as best-served by putting literally everyone within to the sword, or if it DOES come across that way, for the game to better support that style of chronicle.

              Comment


              • #67
                Yu-Shan seems really challenging. Really, it needs to hit notes that evoke Time and the Gods / Gods of Pegana (in the properly mythic and somewhat amoral, yet also sympathetic and grand nature of the greater Celestial gods), Spirited Away (in the omnipresence, feel and nature of minor spirits), and good solid urban fantasy of the sort of Sigil or New Crobuzon (where it is both fantastic and familiarly *real* as a city, with all the mundanely real issues and function a city has and needs).

                (Then you need to do that while making it clear and sympathetic why the gods are not as active in the world as they could be. And it is larger than China...)

                wastevens writes good Yu-Shan stuff, apropos of nothing in particular.

                Comment


                • #68
                  I've had a very different experience with Sidereals I feel could help here. I've played a version of modern exalted where Sidereals had no arcane fate and using first age rules for acquaintances. What ended up happening was I had more room to put destinies on people with only a few resplendent destinies here and there. I ended up having a support role making my circle more effective in their niche and was more involved because people knew about Sidereals. Instead of men in black they were sought after because they were so immensely useful for nations. A nation without a Sidereal became vulnerable because its people was just flat out less effective. Creation forced them to be politicians. Now there were still agents of Heaven, but I only really went to yu-shan for information and wheel-dealing. Yu-shan was still important but if I ever wanted to do anything I had to be in Creation. Arcane fate wasn't there to protect me so I usually hid behind the cluster fuck that was my solar circle with Resplendent destinies to fictionally position myself to take advantage.

                  In short, I've played with most of the more serious changes talked about here. and while it wasn't bad, it did make me way more dependent on other people than a Sidereal already was. It was fun being a battles that constantly encouraged solars to go kill stuff though.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Thesaurasaurus View Post
                    What I want from Yu-Shan is a place that does NOT come across as best-served by putting literally everyone within to the sword...
                    We don't have time to rewrite the entire Exalted setting, though.


                    Have you ever read a Coik post before, man? lol
                    -Holden

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Thesaurasaurus View Post
                      What I want from Yu-Shan is a place that does NOT come across as best-served by putting literally everyone within to the sword, or if it DOES come across that way, for the game to better support that style of chronicle.
                      ​Only you can prevent forest fires.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Thesaurasaurus View Post
                        What I want from Yu-Shan is a place that does NOT come across as best-served by putting literally everyone within to the sword, or if it DOES come across that way, for the game to better support that style of chronicle.
                        In what way is reforming Heaven presently less meritorious than torching it?

                        Perhaps more pressingly, in what way is the current Solar Charmset insufficient to playing a jaded advocate of deicide?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                          In what way is reforming Heaven presently less meritorious than torching it?

                          Perhaps more pressingly, in what way is the current Solar Charmset insufficient to playing a jaded advocate of deicide?
                          brb, making Caim from Drakengard as a Dawn Caste

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X