I kind of miss the 4 virtues - what will replace them?

[CapitanTypo]

To be clear, I absolutely do not miss the mechanics of "roll or spend willpower when you see someone kick a puppy", but the concept of there being four defining virtues that held a strong metaphysical place in creation was something interesting.

There were the virtue-based martial arts, the abcyssic plates and the idea of demon summoning being based on the four virtues, diseases arranged according to vitrues (which was problematic but still an interesting idea) and I personally found the virtues to be a useful replacement for the idea of 'elements' in a world where the elements were a living, breathing, kung-fu-fighting part of the setting.

While I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate the motivation system for what it is (though Solar XP still hasn't quite settled into my thinking yet) I feel like the loss of the virtues has left a bigger hole than I originally thought it would.

What will a more detailed approach to demon summoning look like now? Where will all the virtue-based charms go?

[nalak42]

Well in the cases where it fits virtue based charms will probably trigger off intimacies instead. I'll admit I can't think of any virtue based charms aside from the perfect defenses, and we've seen how those are being adapted, so I'm not entirely sure how it would work.

No one in my group summoned in 2nd, so I'm unclear on this point. What did the virtues provide to the abcyssic plates?

[glamourweaver]

The virtues can still exist as philosophical concepts without being mechanical stats. I definitely still think of the arms of the Unconquered Sun and his four symbolic artifacts as representing the 4 Virtues.

[CapitanTypo]

Well in the cases where it fits virtue based charms will probably trigger off intimacies instead. I'll admit I can't think of any virtue based charms aside from the perfect defenses, and we've seen how those are being adapted, so I'm not entirely sure how it would work.

No one in my group summoned in 2nd, so I'm unclear on this point. What did the virtues provide to the abcyssic plates?

In 2e, The more detailed fluff on demon summoning said that sorcerers break a bound demons will by puttiing pressure on one of the four virtues. There were descriptions of the differences between breaking a demons compassion or valor. It was just a way to provide depth to part of the game, but to me ot felt like it worked really well conceptually

[Morangias]

What will a more detailed approach to demon summoning look like now?

Why do we need more detailed demon summoning now that we have rules for how the binding works mechanically right in the core?

Where will all the virtue-based charms go?

Depending on particular Charms, either Intimacies or the chopping block.

[Myradmir]

Re: Virtues in general, I reckon they'd make a nice basis for a Shaping Ritual of some sort.

[Fata-Ku]

The Abscissic bindings actually work better without virtues – each plate can represent a Defining Principle that has been found to be common to demons or indicative of their nature in some way; which allows for more variety, detail and subtlety rather than clinging to 4 archetypes.

The 4 virtues were useful as inspirations for the original subversions of the virtues that became the bindings, but now that we have the bindings the Virtues are somewhat divorced from them. In that sense they've fulfilled their creative purpose and may safely be discarded.

[Ghosthead]

Thinking about it, it might have been easier to have removed Virtues as a trait on character sheets... while keeping them as a qualities of existence in setting. Just Dragonblooded / Dragon Kings don't have Fire as a trait on their character sheet, but it's unquestionably an element within them and which they harness and build Charms around. Smooth / quick conversion of Virtue based characters - certain of the gods, the Fair Folk - might have been.. simpler. Arguments against...?

[Mr.Jaxus]

The Abscissic bindings actually work better without virtues – each plate can represent a Defining Principle that has been found to be common to demons or indicative of their nature in some way; which allows for more variety, detail and subtlety rather than clinging to 4 archetypes.

If I recall correctly the abscissic bindings weren't just virtues, there was also one for each Attribute and Ability, giving a wide range of ideals to bound them to.

[Leetsepeak]

Thinking about it, it might have been easier to have removed Virtues as a trait on character sheets... while keeping them as a qualities of existence in setting. Just Dragonblooded / Dragon Kings don't have Fire as a trait on their character sheet, but it's unquestionably an element within them and which they harness and build Charms around. Smooth / quick conversion of Virtue based characters - certain of the gods, the Fair Folk - might have been.. simpler. Arguments against...?

That they're not entirely interesting on their own and absent mechanics it's better not to constrain things by them.

Like, take the Fair Folk for instance. Graces? Cool. They got the potential to be even cooler now because they aren't constrained by Virtues.

[AnubisXy]

Like, take the Fair Folk for instance. Graces? Cool. They got the potential to be even cooler now because they aren't constrained by Virtues.

Yeah, Fair Folk didn't even really need Virtues. They just used Graces to do things, and those were only tangentially tied to Virtues to begin with. We even got the Way Grace, for example, which wasn't tied to a Virtue at all.

Personally I think the idea that there are Four Virtues in Creation is cool from a philosophical or religious point of view, but we don't need that as a mechanical system. Let the Immaculate Philosophy talk about the Four Graces, and how the world is shaped by them, and all things can be reflected and filtered through these four lenses and I would be perfectly fine with that.

[Ghosthead]

Mechanically, I can see how they seem like a constraint as Traits and how they were realized. Not so clear on what is constrained by the concepts that there are these four foundational qualities out there existing in the universe, and serving as a building block for Creation, without becoming a trait on the character sheet. Not that this is wrong, but I can't see it.

[Greyman]

If I recall correctly the abscissic bindings weren't just virtues, there was also one for each Attribute and Ability, giving a wide range of ideals to bound them to.

There was one minor template presented--the Sufferer, based on Resistance--though of course the possibility was allowed for rediscovering lost templates.