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  • Apromor
    started a topic Kickstarter fulfillment

    Kickstarter fulfillment

    I looked back at the Kickstarter today:

    I was going to write some words about their progress but everything I wrote came out as ether obsequious praise or viscous criticism. I'll just leave my list and let you reflect on its good an bad points without any further input from me.
    Stretch Goal Complete?
    screen Yes
    fiction anthology Yes
    art increase Yes
    cloth map Yes
    infernal & abyssal previews Yes
    charm cards Yes
    music suite Yes (as of 6/8/17)
    book marks Yes
    quickstart Yes
    essays on Exalted No
    spoiler video Yes
    More bookmarks Yes
    Holden to Gencon Yes
    Novel No
    More Martial arts Yes
    Comic Yes
    2nd novel No
    gold foil spines Yes
    Anathema Yes
    Color art in the Realm and Arms of the Chosen No
    pay bump Yes
    Ready made characters Yes
    More Music No
    More Art in the comic Yes
    Last edited by Apromor; 06-09-2017, 01:30 PM.

  • TGUEIROS
    replied
    Originally posted by Ares View Post

    From the Project update #107: "[...]The Exalted Essay book Stretch Goal is being outlined by the editors[...]"

    Ask and ye shall receive.

    Cool, thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ares
    replied
    Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
    ApromorWhat I haven't really heard about is the essays.
    From the Project update #107: "[...]The Exalted Essay book Stretch Goal is being outlined by the editors[...]"

    Ask and ye shall receive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apromor
    replied
    Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
    Apromor

    Yes, I don't believe anyone would argue that.

    I'm just saying that people weren't crazy or delusional when estimating the size of Miracles, because despite having made a set number of custom charms available for purchase, those were supposed to (and did) come with developers notes. And the estimation of the space those notes would take are probably what threw the wrench at that estimate machine.
    I see, sorry I didn't read more carefully the first time.

    Leave a comment:


  • TGUEIROS
    replied
    Apromor

    Yes, I don't believe anyone would argue that.

    I'm just saying that people weren't crazy or delusional when estimating the size of Miracles, because despite having made a set number of custom charms available for purchase, those were supposed to (and did) come with developers notes. And the estimation of the space those notes would take are probably what threw the wrench at that estimate machine.

    It wasn't "We have 50 custom charms for sale, assuming we sell them all, what is the size of the book? 50 pages! Cuz Charmz!". It is really hard to predict how chatty people get when talking about their creative process.

    It was only 5 bucks anyways, and we got many more Charms than promissed.

    I consider the delivery of Miracles a complete yes.

    What I haven't really heard about is the essays.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apromor
    replied
    Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
    Well, one thing that seems to be ignored on this whole charm count per page for Miracles is the also clearly stated:

    You can Add-on the Custom Charms Compilation PDF (50+ pages with developers notes, as per the Reward Tiers to the right)

    So, the estimate was not that each charm would take a page, but that with developers notes, it might average out to that.

    Who the hell knew how much space the developers notes would take?.
    After nearly every (perhaps every charm, I didn't double check) charm in Miracles there is a section with notes about what the developer thought about the charm. We have the developer's notes.

    Leave a comment:


  • TGUEIROS
    replied
    Well, one thing that seems to be ignored on this whole charm count per page for Miracles is the also clearly stated:

    You can Add-on the Custom Charms Compilation PDF (50+ pages with developers notes, as per the Reward Tiers to the right)

    So, the estimate was not that each charm would take a page, but that with developers notes, it might average out to that.

    Who the hell knew how much space the developers notes would take?

    So we were never promised 50+ pages full of charms, but a PDF with the Custom Charms Compilation and their developers notes, estimated to be 50+ pages.

    Leave a comment:


  • RichT
    replied
    @Whirlwind Monk Fair enough, and thanks for going over this with me. Most of all, now that we are able to get EX3 rolling again as a line, I don't want to let lingering concerns or disappointments lie without discussing them, and hopefully making backers feel a tiny bit better about how things went. Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • WhirlwindMonk
    replied
    Originally posted by RichT View Post
    We didn't just put out whatever we felt like
    No you didn't, and I apologize for implying that you had. I was just trying to express to the other poster that calling something an estimate does not make it not a promise.

    Originally posted by RichT View Post
    But that all is immaterial to the point that this wasn't a book that we were offering based on filling page count, it was a collection of the backer Charms that came out of the rewards.
    And like I said, I have no intention or desire to beat you up for expressing it poorly. I was just baffled at what sort of estimate could lead to the final product being so far off. Apparently that estimate was "one charm per page", which is, quite frankly, insane, but so be it. I've said my piece.

    Originally posted by RichT View Post
    But hey, since you feel badly about the thing, send me your PayPal info to richt@theonyxpath.com and I'll refund your $5.
    If I cared enough about this to ask for a $5 refund, believe me, my far, far larger concerns about the state of the line over the last several years would have led me to demand a refund for my full Orichalcum edition pledge. As it is, I'm very glad I didn't. As I've said elsewhere, the last few weeks have done quite a lot to improve my opinion of things and restore my hope (not the least was finally receiving my book and map). Please don't take anything I've said here as an attack on you, the company, or the game line. It was just meant as an honest bit of constructive criticism listing a couple items from the kickstarter and their status. Obviously you and I disagree over how it should be listed, but as you've said before that future kickstarters will avoid some of the incorrect or ambiguous word choices, the point should be moot going forward and isn't worth derailing this thread over. Apologies for doing so.

    Edit: and just to add so this ends on a more positive note, the Orichalcum Edition and the map are both gorgeous, and I will proudly display them as part of my game collection for years to come. So massive props where due!
    Last edited by WhirlwindMonk; 04-21-2017, 01:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • RichT
    replied
    Originally posted by WhirlwindMonk View Post



    Directly from the Kickstarter page:

    [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

    And yes, an estimate is a promise. It's not an exact promise, no, but calling something an estimate is not carte blanche to put out whatever you feel like in complete disregard of the estimate.
    We didn't just put out whatever we felt like, we put out the backer Charms plus a bunch of extra Charms that only were added because John Morke wanted to add them. When we estimated about a page per Charm, thus giving us 50+ as a page count estimate, we did not have any idea how the Charms would be written nor how much space they would take up. Remember, the book was not finished, it was the Charms specifically that the Devs needed to rewrite, and we were years before the text would hit layout.

    But that all is immaterial to the point that this wasn't a book that we were offering based on filling page count, it was a collection of the backer Charms that came out of the rewards. So 20 pages or 100, it was going to contain as many Charms as there were backer rewards for them. And it was only offered, as an Add-on PDF, because there was so much demand for it by the other backers who didn't pledge for the Charms but wanted a chance to contribute. So it wasn't like we had the thing specced out ahead of time, it came together during the KS and after. So that estimate, was exactly that, an estimate on page count that ultimately was less pages but more Charms that originally planned.

    But hey, since you feel badly about the thing, send me your PayPal info to richt@theonyxpath.com and I'll refund your $5.

    Leave a comment:


  • WhirlwindMonk
    replied
    Originally posted by Gallus View Post
    I see no page estimates for the backer charm PDF anywhere in the campaign or rewards sections. I also would not call an estimate a promise.

    Directly from the Kickstarter page:

    You can Add-on the Custom Charms Compilation PDF (50+ pages with developers notes, as per the Reward Tiers to the right) to any pledge that includes a PDF already.


    And yes, an estimate is a promise. It's not an exact promise, no, but calling something an estimate is not carte blanche to put out whatever you feel like in complete disregard of the estimate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jetstream
    replied
    Originally posted by Gallus View Post
    I see no page estimates for the backer charm PDF anywhere in the campaign or rewards sections. I also would not call an estimate a promise.
    Oh, it's there

    You can Add-on the Custom Charms Compilation PDF (50+ pages with developers notes, as per the Reward Tiers to the right)
    That said: meh

    Leave a comment:


  • Gallus
    replied
    I see no page estimates for the backer charm PDF anywhere in the campaign or rewards sections. I also would not call an estimate a promise.
    Last edited by Gallus; 04-21-2017, 01:00 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • WhirlwindMonk
    replied
    Originally posted by RichT View Post
    Fewer pages than estimated, but many more Charms than originally planned.
    So, I have no intention of running you through the ringer about not describing things quite right leading to bad assumptions. You've accepted that that was a problem, apologized, and promised to improve in the future, and I really, truly appreciate that. As such, it doesn't really bother me that the Kickstarter said "pages" when it probably should have said "charms". That's an understandable and easily forgivable mistake.

    What bothers me is that Miracles of the Solar Exalted is already at less than 2.5 charms per page, roughly half the rate of the core book if my very rough estimate is at all accurate. In other words, these are already long charms. Drop that by "many charms" and I have no idea how anyone with any knowledge of Exalted charms and mechanics could say "Hm, about 60 charms, about 50 pages, so about 1.25 charms per page or so? Yeah, that sounds about right." While I can accept that maybe this is the best you could do given the many issues that have plagued this line since it was announced, "We gave you more content than planned, which is still less than all but the most generous estimates would have expected from a 50 page document" just doesn't do it for me. Especially on content that, unlike Anathema, should have been fully within Onyx Path's control.

    And just to be clear, this is not even remotely a severe enough problem for me to abandon this game or anything like that. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that big a deal. I just don't think this particular item can be truthfully marked as "Delivered as promised."

    Leave a comment:


  • RichT
    replied
    Originally posted by WhirlwindMonk View Post
    Are you only planning on looking at stretch goals here? Because there's more stuff that wasn't stretch goals but was still outside the scope of just the core book. Two examples are the classic PDFs, which I believe have all been delivered, and the book of extra charms, which has been released but falls short of the 50+ pages stated in the Kickstarter.
    Fewer pages than estimated, but many more Charms than originally planned.

    Leave a comment:

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