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The Bikini Witch thread, season 2: Because why the fuck not

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Holden View Post
    Really weird to me that given a picture of a Exalt levitating into the air on wings made of daiklaves, a bunch of socially enlightened thinkers choose to define her by her breasts and gender.
    And her hips! That's one heck of a swing she's got going.

    I find a good general rule of thumb for deciding if an image is sexist is; if a male character were to strike the same pose would my first instinct be to say "this looks effin ridonkulous."
    Last edited by Inqy; 11-15-2013, 10:01 AM.


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    Formerly Inquisitive Englishman

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
      Vash is the only one I don't know much about, and I think he's supposed to have a certain sense of goofiness, but the others I'd assess as kind of good first impressions of the characters.
      Vash is very similar to Kenshin. They both have dark pasts and they deal with it by acting goofy while going out of their way to hide how deadly they actually are and they're both technical pacifists. Vash goes a bit futher then Kenshin in that he disguises all his dodges and well-aimed shots as lucky fumbles while he runs around erratically.
      Last edited by Zironic; 11-15-2013, 07:50 AM.

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      • #63
        Hmm, you picked several pretty strong character types, with enough expressions and style to form an oppinion. Which the girl (but also the guy) from the fighting game (I hope it is one) lack in my opinion. I'm just not sure, what point is being made here.

        There can be one-time pictures, that express a lot about a character. On the other hand, there are enough bland pictures of males and females, that are not telling much about the depictured person.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Nocte ex Mortis View Post
          Or, you know, the entire subject being fought over, again, is because you guys have, again, taken something that is a minor spoiler or piece of a greater thing, in this case the Exalted cover, and gone totally apeshit, again.
          I think you and Holden, whom for some reason I cannot quote (I swear to god that little yellow button up at the top left of the screen used to let me quote multiple posts just last night), are overreacting somewhat. Yes, there is/was a long discussion about the character's design, but I don't think it was all that impassioned. Hell, I was probably the single person who contributed the most to the discussion, and I was more annoyed the other guy's careless use of the word "that" than I was by the image itself. Everyone I can think of who had a problem with the image went out of their way to point out it's just not that big a deal. I sincerely doubt any of us are frothing at the mouth over the injustices done to women everywhere by a silly picture of boobs when, just for instance, Pakistani girls are being shot in the head as punishment for trying to go to school.

          (Sorry for the dated Malala Yousafzai reference there. The first draft of that paragraph went with the story of the Roast Busters, but I felt like comparing this image to a story I felt obligated to put a trigger warning next to was a bit of a low blow, even if the whole point of the comparison is how far removed such a horror is from this basically insignificant picture of boobies. I do encourage anyone who wants some perspective to look that story up some time, though.)

          Originally posted by Nocte ex Mortis View Post
          Seriously, we quite literally have ZERO CONTEXT to put this art piece into, and there's an entire thread threatening to erupt in some sort of twisted moral outrage.
          Leaving aside that I'm not sure what context would make that dress less silly, I cannot help thinking that this is an unfair criticism. I feel like people have been careful to criticize only the image provided rather than this greater context we don't have. At least, I haven't noticed anyone saying the Exalted comic is misogynist trash, or that they'll boycott Exalted forever, or that the artist needs to die of syphilis, or anything. The arguments I've been seeing--and I'll admit my eyes were a bit glazed over and I was just skimming, there toward the end, so I could have missed something--are, "This picture is problematic, due to the cultural factors of X, Y, and Z."

          I guess that last sentence putting the image into our cultural context could be seen as taking the image out of its own context and inserting it into another, though. I don't think that's a fair interpretation, but I can definitely see it.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Holden View Post
            Really weird to me that given a picture of a Exalt levitating into the air on wings made of daiklaves, a bunch of socially enlightened thinkers choose to define her by her breasts and gender.

            Ah well. You'll get the full comic eventually.
            This is very sigh worthy. My biggest problems with the picture were the stance and body language. The reason I find this tiring is because it keeps happening over and over, even when we're told it will be happening LESS in this very game line. Look, I can't think of any of the other art I've had anything negative to say about it. That's good! But if you go "Well, they've been doing pretty good so far, we'll let this one slide." then you are doing artist and company a disservice, since there's a problem, they deserve to know. Critique can be a solid and strong way for us improve. I know this, I've gotten critique on art, and sometimes you want to bristle but it's SMART to take a step back and look at the comments and see if anything can be done along those lines... if not now, in the future.

            As to gender? I don't know it. For all I know, they have no gender. If you don't understand what I mean, please see Prince Diamond.

            If I seem upset, perhaps it's because every time someone tries to point these things out, there is a solid pushback about how everything is fine the way it was/is. I supported Exalted 3rd in a great deal because of the belief that it would take a game I liked but sometimes found problematic and improve on it, making it not just better mechanically but more inclusive. So I'm giving my thoughts as a customer, because if as a customer, you don't give it then you get things you aren't happy with, you have only yourself to blame.

            My comments don't come from a place of anger, but of hope. And, if I'm honest, a place of exhaustion over the whole thing. See the Dani Jameson artwork on Lords of Gossamer and Shadow (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...g/posts/540697) for what I mean. We had a solid piece of art notes, and things seemed to be going ok, then suddenly everything turns and it's too late. I don't want to keep quiet till it is too late. I want the best game possible not just for me but for as many as possible.



            ​When noise turns to silence, when colors dull and pale, when reality no longer makes sense, there shall you find me. There, in the dreams of the River of Faceless Millions, do I dwell.

            http://harenm.deviantart.com/gallery/ for my art.

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            • #66
              Towards the tail end it wasn't really about the character anymore so much as about the definition of words.

              Also, some artistic decisions can be critiqued without context (like a character's facial expression when they're looking at the camera (making the context of the look be "the audience"), or their posture when it's clearly not interacting with anything in the environment.) - the point of criticizing those (mostly) context-insensitive features is to point out to the artist (and other artists) what ruts to avoid in the future (though admittedly, the tone and context of that critique towards the end didn't make for the most conducive atmosphere).

              Also also, as JimB said, no one's criticizing the comic or boycotting it or making videos of it burning in a trashcan; though the posts did get more and more aggressive in a way reminiscent of 2e Social Combat, it wasn't directed at the image or anyone working on it.

              But all art and all media affects us, and dismissing the criticism of a work just because "it'll be in the background" isn't doing the artist that made it any favors.

              The lining and coloring are solid, the swords are cool and the concept (of a levitating, telekinetic fighter/martial-artist) is pretty sweet.
              There are just a couple issues with it that could be dealt with better.


              Bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
              Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Tiresias View Post
                Clothing should be appropriate for the character and the character's context.

                You can make it more complicated than that, but you don't need to.
                Correct. And 'context' is more than the setting of the story, it's also the genre, the medium, and the society that spawned the work. That's why 'And she was born in a culture where nudity is common' is often derided as the creator(s) coming up with a post-hoc reason for a prominent female character to be half-naked and constantly posing in a provocative manner, while the dudes are none of the above.

                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                Namely, that a sexual character is one who, by context and characterisation, comes across as actually wanting to have sex with somebody.

                Whereas a sexualised character is somebody with a load of sexual signifiers and no indication of sex actually being relevant to them.
                Another post I agree with!

                One of the interesting things about female character framed as seductresses is that they are rarely shown as desiring sex. For them, sex is a tool to get what they want from men, not something they seek out because it's fun.

                Originally posted by JimB View Post
                "Bikini witch" is a term that describes, well, bikini witches.
                Personally, I'm not fond of the term. Its older sister, chainmail bikini, was more useful.
                Last edited by hippokrene; 11-15-2013, 11:39 AM.


                Come and rock me Amadeus.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by hippokrene View Post
                  That's why 'And she was born in a culture where nudity is common'
                  Incidentally, can I just say how weird I've always found references to people utilising copies of National Geographic for sexual release?

                  I mean, I've never really seen much that was sexual in cases where such a level of clothing is just how they dress.

                  It's the same principle as nude beaches.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                    Incidentally, can I just say how weird I've always found references to people utilising copies of National Geographic for sexual release?
                    Working as intended.



                    -----
                    From the previous thread:
                    Originally posted by Gonzo View Post
                    Us guys are more visual and that's why eye candy was invented.
                    I think (straight) men would like to believe that women are less visual. They might tell themselves that this commercial is popular because it's 'funny' and not because it features a gorgeous looking man addressing women (and their wants) directly. They likely also tell themselves that male underwear ads like this, this, and this aren't aimed at women, despite them all appearing in women's magazines.

                    The truth is that women are just as visual but advertizing and media spends most of its time catering to the presumed straight male audience.
                    Last edited by hippokrene; 11-15-2013, 12:34 PM.


                    Come and rock me Amadeus.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      Incidentally, can I just say how weird I've always found references to people utilising copies of National Geographic for sexual release?

                      I mean, I've never really seen much that was sexual in cases where such a level of clothing is just how they dress.

                      It's the same principle as nude beaches.
                      It's mostly just a cheap/easy joke that combines "young boys are horny" with the fact that National Geographic magazine's place in the monoculture/shallow reference pool is "available in schools, has pictures of naked tribeswomen." The implication is that the boys want to get off to something/anything, but all they have is the stuff school allows them, not necessarily that they find the actual pictures amazing/desireable fodder.

                      This has been "Dissecting the Joke!" Hopefully though this particular one will die soon since it's pretty laughable a modern kid lacks for access to sexual images. Or at least, do a fun twist on it like Bob's Burgers nude beach episode.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by haren View Post

                        As to gender? I don't know it. For all I know, they have no gender. If you don't understand what I mean, please see Prince Diamond.
                        Eh. I think from clothes and presentation the character is clearly intended to project as female to observers. Generally safe to make assumptions like that about fictional characters. You can't hurt their feelings so it's the reaction of the audience that matters. Kind of a complete inversion of real life but hey.
                        Last edited by Inqy; 11-15-2013, 12:30 PM.


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                        Formerly Inquisitive Englishman

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                        • #72
                          4 pages into this thread and we had 4 pictures. Then an excellent post on implied traits. Everything else seems to be some kind of attempt to throw a trashcan through a pizza shop window, but with no success at all because this is the internet.

                          So I ask you, can we either:

                          A) Get a thread re-title
                          B) Get some bikini witches (male, female, neither, both, whatever)
                          C) Call it a wash and mod lock this.


                          Incentive is not permission or justification.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ParanoiaCombo View Post
                            4 pages into this thread and we had 4 pictures. Then an excellent post on implied traits. Everything else seems to be some kind of attempt to throw a trashcan through a pizza shop window, but with no success at all because this is the internet.

                            So I ask you, can we either:

                            A) Get a thread re-title
                            B) Get some bikini witches (male, female, neither, both, whatever)
                            C) Call it a wash and mod lock this.
                            I don't know about anyone else, but it's my policy to "Just say no to ParanoiaCombos"



                            ​When noise turns to silence, when colors dull and pale, when reality no longer makes sense, there shall you find me. There, in the dreams of the River of Faceless Millions, do I dwell.

                            http://harenm.deviantart.com/gallery/ for my art.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by haren View Post

                              As to gender? I don't know it. For all I know, they have no gender. If you don't understand what I mean, please see Prince Diamond.
                              Prince Diamond has a gender. Hint: There's a reason he doesn't call himself Princess Diamond.


                              Come and rock me Amadeus.

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                              • #75
                                And here we go... people need to stop asking less bikini witches in Exalted. It's one of those games that just... doesn't need that kind of discussion.

                                The cover for Malfeas is a half-naked dude all oiled up. The cover for Fair Folk book is also a half-naked man. I don't really remember any half-naked lady in any cover, right now. And no matter what you think, Ejava is a Dynast, that means she enjoys dressing half-naked during galas, she has had her share of allucinogens and has had more sex than most people in her world, in various and not always 'decent' ways. It is a sexually charged, sensual setting, but unlike most settings, armor is far less useful than 'magic'. A naked Solar could absorb more punishment than any Dragon-Blooded without Five Dragon Style.

                                You can argue about bikini witches in World of Warcraft, Tera Online, any of those. Exalted? Please. If there is one game that is pretty much up there in the equality (even if it's equality in debauchery and sexuality) that game is Exalted.

                                With the protagonists being butchers, mind-raping gods, it baffles me you worry about this issue.

                                People need to stop being so insecure and use their heads for a change.


                                IA

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