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  • #31
    Yes, you are correct, though there may be Arcanoi that Ghosts may be able to use to drag an item into the Underworld as a grave good (we have no word yet about 3e Arcanoi beyond that presented in 3e).

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Morangias View Post
      3. Actual artifacts made by denizens of the Underworld from ghosts to Deathlords that follow all normal rules of artifacts and can enter Creation freely.
      They don't seem to be strictly speaking following all the normal rules. Many of these artifacts don't involve magical materials, though they frequently involve exotic underworld components. Some examples...

      'This pillow is made from woven grass, stuffed with the down of pyre hawks and embroidered with silk taken from graveclothes.'

      'This whip must be prepared with hide taken from a dead stallion, a lash woven from his mane and a haft reinforced with bones from the stallion’s body. When properly prepared and ensorcelled, a single crack from the whip will summon the stallion’s ghost to serve the owner.'

      'The illnesses that have slain the dead can, in turn, be let loose upon the living once again. This black silk sack is three handwidths across and is embroidered with the names of sicknesses from across Creation with black silk thread and the hair of those who died from contagious fevers.'


      ... though many artifacts specify they require Jade or Soulsteel, as well, so it's not just that magical materials are implied in the write up. One underworld artifact, the Mirror of Life, can even be either/or! So certainly not having access to magical materials wouldn't strongly inhibit ghostly production, though it might very well make numerous specific artifacts unrealistic to obtain.

      The point being, ghosts are far and away in-setting the most prolific consumers and producers of 'magical' shit. The 3e emphasis on more realistic settings may completely re imagine the underworld, but I doubt it. I think it will remain a generally more fantastic setting that hews closer to magical realism rather than gritty Conan physics. As portrayed the world of the dead is pretty surreal and alien from Creation, filled with strange arcanoi and relics that are far more 'setting defining' that most places in Creation will ever be. I suspect artifacts will still be comparatively abundant.


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      • #33
        While the principles of the settings are a bit different, I think some of the core points of this short essay concerning the Underworld of Wraith: the Oblivion might provide some good guide posts regarding the subject of large numbers of magical ghosts and matters of logistics.

        ​Mind, I personally define Artifacts specifically as instruments for the use of powerful individuals in a manner that might belie the notion of the Underworld producing them on an industrial capacity all on its own. Regardless of rules, to my mind the necessarily unique character of any given daiklave or similar weapon means that one has to be inspired with a particular purpose, if not wielder, for them, and that can make it hard to just churn them out continuously over the centuries.

        ​I also find that this would provide a bit of focus on what an Artifact even is. For instance:
        Originally posted by Piff
        'This pillow is made from woven grass, stuffed with the down of pyre hawks and embroidered with silk taken from graveclothes.'
        What does an Artifact pillow do?


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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        • #34
          When a ghost lies down with his head on the pillow, as though composing himself to sleep, he can spend Essence in order to hear what is happening near where his dead body lies (or where it lay before the elements reclaimed it). A single mote of Essence lets the user hear what is happening within earshot of his grave, and 2 motes let him hear everything that is going on within a mile of his grave, while 3 motes let him hear what is going on within five miles of his grave. The effect lasts for a maximum of an hour, and the pillow must be left for a day before anyone can use it again.

          Not all the dead have been given proper burials. Fortunately for such ghosts, the pillow can function even in these cases, focusing on the spot where the body in question was left to rot unburied. In the event of multiple conversations or noises occurring in the area of effect, the player of the pillow’s user must make a Perception + Awareness roll, difficulty 5, for his character to filter out any one particular conversation, which he can listen to for successes scored x 10) minutes. Some ghosts who are paranoid about grave robbers use these pillows constantly, unwilling to risk leaving their gravesites unattended.
          It's the Pillow of Grass, a 1 dot from Book of Bone and Ebony.

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          • #35
            Which is an example of a fairly common Artifact among ghosts. It provides a conditionally useful magical effect beyond the normal magical abilities of ghosts. There are plenty of such artifacts that do not require any of the five magical materials, ranging from the Collar of the Bestial Shade (Artifact 1) to the White Snake that Hungers (Artifact 3), and all of them are within the capabilities of ghostly artificers.

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            • #36
              Now, that's not something that I would call an Artifact in Third Edition. It might still exist as a kind of minor magical item in a similar class to Talismans, but be distinct from even the lower end of items such as Collars of Dawn's Cleansing Light.


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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              • #37
                It produces a Charm-like effect, so it is an Artifact. I would actually suggest that it is a potentially powerful espionage Artifact, if highly specialized, because someone buried in a city could spend 3 motes to overhear the conversations of potentially tens of thousands of people.

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                • #38
                  Ohhh this isn't a place for me to argue about personal definitions of Artifacts.

                  So tired...

                  Something substantial to the conversation...

                  ​Does anybody else feel as though ghosts of the Exalted should be somewhat uncommon? Not for any particular reason in-character, I just feel like it can be a bit awkward in many instances.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                  • #39
                    I think that the funerals of DB buried under the Immaculate traditions of the Realm, Lookshy, etc., should discourage them going to the Underworld (mortal or Exalted). In early editions, sorcerers and necromancers also had suicide spells that allowed them to die instantly without creating a ghost.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Morangias View Post
                      Was it stated somewhere in 2e that she secretly bought herself a lavish funeral in Sijan in defiance of the Immaculate observances, or am I imagining that?
                      I somehow missed this in the first readthrough, but that's an awesome little trivia factoid, and if you DID imagine it I'm stealing it. If you didn't, and somebody can find a page reference, all the better.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                        ​Does anybody else feel as though ghosts of the Exalted should be somewhat uncommon? Not for any particular reason in-character, I just feel like it can be a bit awkward in many instances.
                        Sounds sorta right. In the First Age I'm sure the Exalted did make sure they themselves at least didn't rise, but then again the First Age lasted a while so that would mean there would be plenty. In the current Age the Realm would prevent it's own DBs from rising, but only if they get proper funerals. But, Anathema put down may not get respectful burials, so they may rise probably more frequently than you'd expect

                        I think they'd be hard to find, but probably plenty down there. But, as they have little beyond higher starting stats to distinguish them from the ghosts of ordinary people, they'd be harder to pick out.

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                        • #42
                          Yes, it would have to be very experienced and very old Exalt to form a ghost that was unusual by the standards of the Underworld. On another note, I wonder if Infernal Exalted would form ghosts and, if so, how twisted would they be from their exposure to Primordial essence.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
                            Sounds sorta right. In the First Age I'm sure the Exalted did make sure they themselves at least didn't rise, but then again the First Age lasted a while so that would mean there would be plenty. In the current Age the Realm would prevent it's own DBs from rising, but only if they get proper funerals. But, Anathema put down may not get respectful burials, so they may rise probably more frequently than you'd expect
                            Burial rites can prevent the creation of hungry ghosts, and appease ghosts with grave goods and memoriam. Some ghosts may be more likely to pass on to Lethe if they feel that their bodies have been treated respectfully and in accordance with tradition, but the rite itself has no supernatural power to prevent them from remaining in the Underworld rather than passing onward.


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                            • #44
                              Still, I imagine as I try to think up the late Scarlet Empress, she would start with a lot of Essence, but not much else. Since she wouldnt have a full funeral.

                              Probably one hell of a cult rating though

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                              • #45
                                Without a proper burial though, she would produce a rather frightening P'o. She would also likely have several Attributes at maximum, dozens of Abilities at maximum, the maximum number of Ox-Body Techniques allowed, and a dozen completed Martial Arts Styles to her name, so she would be a phenomenally powerful ghost from the beginning. After all, she survived for over seven centuries as the despotic ruler of Creation, including assassination attempts by elder Lunar Exalted, so she was likely one of the best martial artists in Creation.

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