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What is the scale of Primordials?

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  • What is the scale of Primordials?

    I have been wondering about what is the scale of the Primordials / Yozis in relation to Creation.

    As I understand, the Titans created Creation as a place to rest and enjoy themselves. Yu-Shan was their haven and Games of Divinity were their vice. So this would imply they should be able to fit in the Jade Pleasure Dome, unless it was their Fetitch Souls / Third Circle Daevas that were actually playing the games while their bodies existed somewhere else?

    The details on the sizes of the Primordials' actual size is a bit scant - Ebon Dragon can take his draconic shape that is 50 miles long and 2 miles wide, Mardukth was so big he barely could believe in himself, Adrian encircled Creation, etc. Then we have the Primordials that seem to defy sizes - Cecelyne is the endless desert, Kimbery is infinitely deep, Qaf is measured in narrative rather than height, Malfeas and Autochton are both infinitely large yet finitely confined it would appear.

    So how ought those sizes compare to Creation? Did the Titans create some place where their bodies could fit and rest size-wise? or is asking that generally missing the point of Primordials - should they not be bound by space, be able to both small enough to fit in Yu-Shan / Jade Pleasure Dome, and be vast enough to be bigger than Creation at the same time?

  • #2
    I always felt the primordial could never be seen/given numbers to describe them. Since they created creation, creation fit them not the other way around. When Autochthon, the Ebon Dragon, and Adrian were taking turns in the Games of Divinity, the Pleasure Dome fit them. They did not change to fit the dome. How did this work? It is beyond our comprehension. They created creation and creation can do what they want.

    Limiting creation to being a place for their Fetitch Souls / TCD is humans trying to understand that which is beyond even The Unconquered Sun.


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    • #3
      So gibber gibber hand wave? Nah, they can resize themselves, either literally shrinking themselves or dumping themselves into a jouten and wandering around.

      Or maybe reality distorts around them, making more room. From an outside perspective, them shrinking and the surroundings growing looks the same.

      Yeah, I'm a bit concrete. The metaphysical nonsense doesn't interest me.


      Don't feel bad. People tell the developers they get Exalted wrong all the time. -hippokrene

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      • #4
        I think it was once said that if Autochton wanted all of Autochtonia could manifest in creation as a sphere about the size of a beach ball.

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        • #5
          I'm gonna go with "missing the point". Primordials are paradoxical beings, not wholly beholden to the rules of the reality they created.

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          • #6
            Does Malfaes contradict himself? Very well then, he contradicts himself.
            Malfaes is vast; he contains multitiudes.


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            Album of the Charm Trees thereof.

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            • #7
              The Primordials had more mortal sized Jouten, though I imagine most are rather larger then most people anyways. But I always took the Ebon Dragon's 50 mile long dragon form as more the Runt of the Primordials. Perhaps he is longer then some but he is over all smaller then most. I see Izzy as much larger.


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              • #8
                Primordials are as vast or as small as they need to be. Games of Divinity, like a lot of things, has something to say on this:

                Concepts of space mean nothing to the Primordials in their prison. In Malfeas, the Yozis are in many places and in many forms. In one place, they spread to their limits and become larger than the world. In another, they collapse to the size of a yeddim or a flea.
                Like, let's ignore things like 2e's invention of the Brass Dancer. In their original description, the Demon City had plazas large neough that the whole Demon City could dance in it. Which makes no fucking sense if you assume that these things operate in something that even remotely looks like Euclidian geometry. But seeing as they include things like a mountain with no summit or base, oceans with a surface but no bottom, spherical shells of a city which nonetheless are wide enough to be flat somehow encircled by a two-dimensinal flat desert and things just aren't so worrisome.

                In fact, the Jade Pleasure Dome itself is the least of worries I would think since well, enough other things in Creation have internal volume much greater than their external volume that it's almost a freebie I'd say that it could fit something like the Ebon Dragon in his full spelndor or the vastness of the Infinite Desert.

                And stuff.
                Last edited by Blaque; 05-19-2017, 11:49 AM.


                And stuff.
                Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                  Like, let's ignore things like 2e's invention of the Brass Dancer.
                  Point of order; I almost certain that the Brass Dancer that is Malfaes dancing through the streets of the Demo City that is Malfaes originates from Games of Divinity.


                  A tinkering effort at bringing fate ninjas into Ex3: Sidereals: Where Fate Has Led

                  Album of the Charm Trees thereof.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wastevens View Post

                    Point of order; I almost certain that the Brass Dancer that is Malfaes dancing through the streets of the Demo City that is Malfaes originates from Games of Divinity.
                    "...There is room for worlds to pass between its arches and Yozis to wander
                    down its streets. Even Malfeas, the Demon City, can dance
                    in its central square. ..."

                    This is the only bit I can find where there is anything about Malfeas particular and dancing. The section on the Yozis in general describes them all as dancers and the only other instance of thew rod seems to be in context of Stanewald and glymine.

                    He always could dance in his plazas and down the streets. in context of Games of Divinity, this meant that the city was so large the city could walk down its streets is how I interpret it.

                    And stuff.


                    And stuff.
                    Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wastevens View Post

                      Point of order; I almost certain that the Brass Dancer that is Malfaes dancing through the streets of the Demo City that is Malfeas originates from Games of Divinity.
                      Ummm......noooo ?? GoD only says that every Yozi are master dancer and musician, Malfeas write-up only mentions him dancing in the city square to illustrate the fact that the Yozi can be both humongous and tiny at the same time, the word Brass Dancer does not appear anywhere in the book.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jen View Post

                        Ummm......noooo ?? GoD only says that every Yozi are master dancer and musician, Malfeas write-up only mentions him dancing in the city square to illustrate the fact that the Yozi can be both humongous and tiny at the same time, the word Brass Dancer does not appear anywhere in the book.

                        Huh. Okay then, mea memory culpa


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                        Album of the Charm Trees thereof.

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                        • #13
                          Well general accepted idea is that before they fell the Primordials also inhabited Zen Mu, which we have no clue on the scale of. After that it comes more down to the Primordials being confusing and insane beings. I mean The Endless Desert takes 5 days to cross period. Doesn't matter if you crawl on your belly or use Stormwind Rider as soon as you're able to you will arrive in 5 days.(Unless you've unfortunately drawn Cecelyne's direct attention then all bets are off.) So them being able to be infinite in size while occupying a finite space doesn't surprise me.

                          Another possibility bringing dimensional transcendatal aspects to bare. Like the Demon City could manifest as a city block that can easily be walked around, hell you can even see the street on the other side through one of the ally ways, yet if you try to cut across it you never make progress towards the other side of the block even though you've yet to hit a repeat of a building or street.

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                          • #14
                            How many Primordials can dance on the head of a pin? All of them. The Primordials can create bodies for themselves of any size they desire. For many, their true forms are so massive that they dwarf Creation. But this doesn't really matter to them since they can easily create smaller bodies that could fit inside Creation, the Jade Pleasure Dome or anywhere else.

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                            • #15
                              Being indefinite is part of the Primordials' shtick.

                              To put things more concretely (and in headcanon territory) - the primordials have the ability to choose on what level to engage the world around them. They have control over their physical and spiritual dimensions in a way that nothing else in Creation does. They're like the Unshaped raksha but more coherent, able to assume a variety of forms that are all tied to a single core identity.

                              I expect they fit into Creation however they wanted to. They could have been land features as well as residents, or something more esoteric like extra moons floating in the sky. The one thing they probably were not (really) was infinite. Even for such beings as these, it is not possible for them to both dwell in Creation and also be bigger than Creation.


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