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  • #76
    Originally posted by Jen View Post

    I'm pretty sure that they are staple as in "Look at this freak and laugh at him for being different"



    The problem is that I don't see a burly cute man in flowing cloth being carry-princess by his boyfriend some kind of contrast, but I don't know how other characters will react to my Solar since like you just demonstrate people who act like that are just plain weird to the majority of people.
    Big men being feminine gorgeous. [And yeah I know what's feminine is arbitrary and subjective.k we can pretend all day that everybody who puts things in boxes are lesser people. The fact of the matter is that there are are a body of trends at least that is in the culture I assome is sharbd between us that is opted by women more predominantly than men. Same way the other round. Nor of course does dressing quote-unquote feminine make someone less of a man or masculine make a woman less of a woman.] Is rather rare. I am not against it. To be fair big women being feminine Lee gorgeous tends to be treated as a rarity sadly. At the very least it's not as prominent in modern pop culture.
    that said I like big boys myself so if you have any recommendations for something to get me in the mood or to visualize how your aesthetic works for you I'm all ears and eyes. But you're going to have to sell it to me just like anything does with anime music video games or anything.
    Are we talking Billy Ray Cyrus or what's his name's father from Hunter x Hunter.


    Or maybe Ray from Fist of the North Star?

    He was introduced as beautiful and graceful with long hair he was even able to pull off in a cloak a sort of feminine pose. So basically that would be the archetype or one example of a guy that you're looking for who's large Burly wanders around in the outlands but uses a very feminine style. However I think dreaming Pearl courtesan is the worst example for that. Ray practiced swan Style Fist of the Southern Cross. I imagine it'd be no weirder than hunger with its mix of imitating a crane or a bear. Dreaming Pearl however depends on you being dressed up and acting like a courtesan often from the get-go. Graceful martial arts will likely confuse and add to an overall sense of hatred for the solar exalted.
    Last edited by Darmani; 07-06-2017, 08:13 AM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by LDDM84 View Post

      ok, I am not sure I understand completely, but I would like some problem to tackle while I play hero. So, is she sexually harassing someone? I punish her and help someone. Is she sexually harassed? I help her and punish someone. She is also inside a supplement named adversary of the chosen. Shouldn't there be problems and problematic people to raise questions for your characters?
      ​Okay, the meaning of the word "problematic" in this context is about the subject having implications related to real world problems. In this case, the problem isn't how about the character, it's about the text and the audience and the real world associations between successful women and presumption of sex.

      ​When we have a major portion of the Realm's military in which one of the leaders attained the position through sex, and the other through being a stereotypical obstinate old woman, it's not exactly making the best first impression.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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      • #78
        Okay, but there are many subject with problematic implications related to real world in the game line. Instead of changing this character now, make other characters in the following months so to make a better presentation of the Realm military.


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        • #79
          Originally posted by LDDM84 View Post
          Okay, but there are many subject with problematic implications related to real world in the game line. Instead of changing this character now, make other characters in the following months so to make a better presentation of the Realm military.

          I prefer that to retconning, yes. Deepening the character with further stories is good too, as long as it's deepening rather than changing. (unless the story calls for change of course, dunno how to quantify that)

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

            ​Okay, the meaning of the word "problematic" in this context is about the subject having implications related to real world problems. In this case, the problem isn't how about the character, it's about the text and the audience and the real world associations between successful women and presumption of sex.

            ​When we have a major portion of the Realm's military in which one of the leaders attained the position through sex, and the other through being a stereotypical obstinate old woman, it's not exactly making the best first impression.
            Frankly we NEED more incompentent soap opera self destructive dillentantes. Just a reminder the largest sign of those previous edition were Lahor Sesus Chanow and The Slug. One was forgotten and utterly incongruous with later realm supplements and the other is ONLY ever a secret genius as to a bitter Tiberius-esque figure of compentence AND dissolution

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Synapse View Post
              Deepening the character with further stories is good too
              ​This is a roleplaying game, not a fiction anthology.


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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              • #82
                Then just leave her there. It doesn't matter.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Jen View Post
                  like, if my burly Zenith compelely destroys a Wyld Hunt with Dreaming Pearl Courtesan, will the DB's thoughts be "How can he be so strong, he looks like a faggot!"
                  Given that the example of DPC in Adversaries of the Righteous is a dude, I don't think you're going to stand out or be derided. Enemies might be surprised as someone mentioned above, but then that's kinda the point of DPC.

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                  • #84
                    I think thematic proximity to Tepet Lisara kind of poisoned Ragara Feria but even without that connection she was presented more as a potential love-interest than the person who coordinates all the Realm's naval activity along its northern shores. I don't know how I would've presented her as an antagonist if my PCs found themselves in that part of the ocean.


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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Synapse View Post
                      Then just leave her there. It doesn't matter.
                      ​I think it is evident that it matters to some people in this thread.

                      Do we have to go back to the first page, about how depictions in art matter?


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by LDDM84 View Post
                        Okay, but there are many subject with problematic implications related to real world in the game line. Instead of changing this character now, make other characters in the following months so to make a better presentation of the Realm military.
                        I don't think you fully appreciate the scale of your suggestion here.

                        As per the Exalted game line's high-level discussion of the setting's organizational and cultural tendencies, the Realm is a matriarchy with a glass ceiling for men, staffed by legendary (albeit hereditary) heroes. As per Savage Seas' example of this in action, three of the Realm's five fleet admirals are men, and the two women did not acquire their positions by merit.

                        It is possible, in theory, to correct the discrepancy between the high-level description of the setting's demographics and its examples by adding new NPCs. For example, we could establish that this suite of admirals is an historical aberration. We could publish names and biographies of their predecessors, making it clear that most of the time, the Realm's admiralty is matriarchal, and we could publish biographies of the current admirals' subordinates and likely replacements to make it clear the current demographic anomaly is unlikely to remain as it is, and that soon things will revert to the mean. We could hang plot hooks off that.

                        Sometimes this is the correct approach. We're fixing the "Not enough satrapies" problem by adding new satrapies, for example.

                        But it's not just the admiralty demographic examples out of line with what they ought to be. It's pretty much everywhere throughout Realm NPC lists. High-ranking competent men who don't face prejudice based on their gender everywhere, and the women are wastrels who sleep their way to the top (with a few notable exceptions such as the Roseblack).

                        We would have to publish so many new NPCs. Not just a few. Far more than the setting warrants, given the amount of material we can reasonably publish per year.

                        It would also be super-restrictive to work around existing material like that. So we're not.
                        Last edited by Stephen Lea Sheppard; 07-06-2017, 04:15 PM.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                          But it's not just the admiralty demographic examples out of line with what they ought to be. It's pretty much everywhere throughout Realm NPC lists. High-ranking competent men who don't face prejudice based on their gender everywhere, and the women are wastrels who sleep their way to the top (with a few notable exceptions such as the Roseblack).
                          Exactly.
                          A lot of people think because Ejava is on the cover of multiple books that she represents some kind of competent female officer default when she's actually an aberration when you check the facts.

                          As for Feria, I don't think she's necessarily *changed* that much...
                          I'm pretty sure the 1e version of the character was intended to be a damn scary woman when she was hunting pirates, even if the write-up may lead one to some absurd mental image of an enemy ship stopping dead in the water because the entire crew is much too busy catcalling the admiral.
                          Similarly, there's no reason why this version of her can't be a sexual tyrannosaurus who has these epic whirlwind romances in her downtime... If anything that potentially provides an interesting juxtaposition between what she's like on and off duty.


                          Onyx Path Forums Moderator

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                          • #88
                            It does seem an unnecessarily convoluted way of fixing things.

                            It also begs the question of why exactly we would want to keep a portrayal of a character that is a misogynistic cliché.

                            ​To be sure, in the rich diversity that is the real world, you will probably find at least a few examples of people who happen to exhibit the combination of traits that exemplify a stereotype or a cliché (traits that correlate, rather than being causative, another inherent fallacy with stereotypes), and in an ideal world we could have a broad range of fiction exhibiting the full diversity of the human race without repeating any kinds of narrative that, if nothing else, would be repellent to people who are depicted in a harmful way by those narratives.

                            ​But we don't have that, so for the moment I would sooner redress.


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              It does seem an unnecessarily convoluted way of fixing things.

                              It also begs the question of why exactly we would want to keep a portrayal of a character that is a misogynistic cliché.

                              ​To be sure, in the rich diversity that is the real world, you will probably find at least a few examples of people who happen to exhibit the combination of traits that exemplify a stereotype or a cliché (traits that correlate, rather than being causative, another inherent fallacy with stereotypes), and in an ideal world we could have a broad range of fiction exhibiting the full diversity of the human race without repeating any kinds of narrative that, if nothing else, would be repellent to people who are depicted in a harmful way by those narratives.

                              ​But we don't have that, so for the moment I would sooner redress.
                              Well part of the reason is because the realm is supposed to be decadent and decrepit and full of cronyism that means people at the top or not necessarily supposed to be most confident people there is. Thus allowing for a greater diversity and level of righteousness for all those who oppose them. Also known as every other freaking splat.
                              while I do agree with Shepherd that it's ridiculous that the realm is clclaimed a fighting a matriarchy, but the demographics follow the expectations of a more male leaning claimed,we run into the other problem. Mainly every realm politician officer and what have you is a super competent super dedicated person who is always disciplined and on the ball. But in fact while the Host projected this ideal officer the truth was supposed to be that you had a bunch of soap opera Looney Tunes who were beress the result of damage thanks to a very toxic culture that was nursed by the Scarlet empress.

                              Hence why after just a few years they can't even put in a decent placeholder that can be held to the populace and they're on the verge of Civil War. They aren't a nation that's been in cohesion for hundreds of years. they're more of a gangtofu overpowered dillentantes that's been incredibly successful that's suddenly lost its star player. Yeah I'm terrible with metaphors.


                              And it's not just a misogynistic cliche. How many professional women are actual pros at their overall day-to-day jobs but when it comes to their love life they're total screw-ups. Hell that's not even something you need to limit to women that is usually the tragic story of Many Men. James Tiberius Kirk as an example.

                              There is supposed to be systemic corruption for everyone from the top being suckers or exploiters to the bottom it's just that with the removal the Scarlet Empress the fact that the top person is now tepid Fook off (aha got that) the ill health of the culture and system is much more prominent and out of control.
                              you want to show your not being misogynistic? show a decadent decayed Empire with a lot of women at the top who were having all of the problems of the Murderers Row of nightmare politicians that led to the fall of Rome or what have you.

                              At the very least though try to drop the Jezebel archetype. It's just not necessary because women can wyield power much more directly. They can still be dissolute assholes who are running their worlds into the ground because they can't control themselves. After all we do still have house Cynis which is run by a trio of sisters. But we should also have them show all of the problems that we imagine of a decadent crumbling Empire that has let indolence cronyism and other poor means of government control them because they were set up with the system that was meant to fail. Propped up by lost tech and hax that suddenly isn't as available or untouchable.
                              Last edited by Darmani; 07-06-2017, 05:27 PM.

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                              • #90
                                "Retcons" are the only way to address the myriad inconsistencies of 1E and 2E material. The question isn't about whether to cut bad characters and settings elements but which elements are worth saving and which need to go. The lower effort choice by far would be to excise the sidebars on matriarchal bias, edit out a few lines here and there elsewhere, and then leave all the rest of the Realm unchanged.

                                Ragara Feria's backstory needed to lose the "sex to gain power" piece. If anything I'd invert it and trade it to Tepet Lisara to give her something more compelling than terrible straw misandry. Show Liasra abusing her power by favoring beautiful men with promotions, the loss of trust in the Third Legion that kind of favoritism breeds, and ultimately how it brought about the downfall of the Third Legion against the Bull of the North. Or you could find a male character and graft Feria's old backstory to him as a way to tell the reader "hey, power relations between the genders in the Realm are inverted from our social norms". Leaving it alone just gives reader's the wrong impression on how power operates in the setting.

                                Originally posted by Darmani View Post
                                After all we do still have house Cynis which is run by a trio of sisters.
                                House Cynis isn't going to be run by a trio of sisters anymore in 3E! A House being run by multiple women wasn't "strong leadership".

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