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Crafting Vs Workings

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  • Crafting Vs Workings

    I feel like someone has probably brought this up before, but I can't seem to find it as a topic: Doesn't Crafting seem unbalanced vs Sorcerous Workings? You can seemingly do a lot of the same stuff with both, but you pay exp for Workings while only paying crafting exp for crafting. It seems like the exp cost for Workings is like a charge for not having to make a lot of mundane items. Am I missing something here?

  • #2
    The two animals you're comparing might have superficial similarities, but they're very different, like an armadillo and a pangolin. And just like an armadillo and a pangolin, it's not really accurate to say one is "better" than the other save for in terms of certain arbitrary criteria (and other arbitrary criteria can be easily invented in which the reverse is true).
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 07-10-2017, 03:32 AM.

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    • #3
      Being able to do do even Solar Circle workings costs you only 3 charms, giving you 3 spells which are almost certainly incredibly usefull and would be worth getting all on their own even if sorcerous workings weren't a thing, and give you access to the cool stuff you can get from 3 different Shaping Rituals, and then on top of that as a free bonus you get the ability to spend some solar xp to create new gods and rewrite the rules of reality. I have a really hard time seeing how this could ever been seen as anything but an absolutely amazing deal.

      Too be honest when I saw the thread title I was sure it was going to be about how Crafting is so cumbersome and requires so much time and investment compared to all the shit you get from Sorcery practically for free.
      Last edited by limaxophobiac; 07-10-2017, 05:09 AM.

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      • #4
        You can do some similar things with Craft and Sorcery. You can do some things with Craft that you can't do with Sorcery, and a lot of things with Sorcery that you can't do with anything. I think the experience costs for Sorcery are solely concerned with being a method for arbitrating the rate of creating Workings than a way to balance it against something else.

        ​Besides, the experience is more of a deposit than a payment, so it gets recouped if the working should be rendered non-existent or otherwise no longer relevant to the narrative.

        Originally posted by limaxophobiac View Post
        Being able to do do even Solar Cirlce workings costs you only 3 charms
        ​Not even that, really; Solar Workings lower than Ambition 3 are possible for any sorcerer, and Celestial Circle is able to access the rest.

        ​It's more difficult, but not outside the bounds of actual Solars.
        Last edited by Isator Levi; 07-10-2017, 04:13 AM.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

          ​Not even that, really; Solar Workings lower than Ambition 3 are possible for any sorcerer, and Celestial Circle is able to access the rest.

          ​It's more difficult, but not outside the bounds of actual Solars.
          Solars with generous amounts of downtime. Going from 1 week to 3 months on the default interval + probably needing more intervals thanks to the higher difficulty.

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          • #6
            I put it as something more for Solars because of their Excellency.


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by limaxophobiac View Post
              Too be honest when I saw the thread title I was sure it was going to be about how Crafting is so cumbersome and requires so much time and investment compared to all the shit you get from Sorcery practically for free.
              Well that is sort of what I am saying. You can invest in getting to be a sorcerer or invest in getting to be a crafter, but it seems like you get so much more out of the former that no one seems to want to play the latter. I'm not one of those people who feels it all needs to balance out perfectly, but the disparagy seems too great.

              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              I think the experience costs for Sorcery are solely concerned with being a method for arbitrating the rate of creating Workings than a way to balance it against something else.

              ​Besides, the experience is more of a deposit than a payment, so it gets recouped if the working should be rendered non-existent or otherwise no longer relevant to the narrative.
              That kind of speaks to the fundamental issue; What is a given system for and does it do that? As I see it the point of having either system is broadly the same. There are two primary points. The first is that both Workings and Craft seem like something that should exist in the setting, as they are clearly part of the genre and fun. The second point is that they both need some limitation. Judging by that criteria Workings seems to fit the bill very well, while Crafting seems to fit point one better than point two. I guess you could say that's simply another complaint about it being cumbersome.

              Maybe I just need to find or make a variant of the craft system I like. One could very nearly use the Workings system to replace Craft.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BunniRabbi View Post

                Well that is sort of what I am saying. You can invest in getting to be a sorcerer or invest in getting to be a crafter, but it seems like you get so much more out of the former that no one seems to want to play the latter. I'm not one of those people who feels it all needs to balance out perfectly, but the disparagy seems too great.
                well this is true and yet also not true, workings are inherently capable of more than crafting, so if you invest in sorcery then you are going to by default gain an easier path to greater power, however their is also the risk that comes with working, and i also feel like this calls for bringing up wyld shaping as well because their is overlap with that as well. They all three do something similar but inherently different, and sorcerous working and wyld shaping all have a greater risk added to them. the xo cost of workings also helps to counteract the difference in how little xp it takes to gain access to workings. but ill go over that in the next part.

                That kind of speaks to the fundamental issue; What is a given system for and does it do that? As I see it the point of having either system is broadly the same. There are two primary points. The first is that both Workings and Craft seem like something that should exist in the setting, as they are clearly part of the genre and fun. The second point is that they both need some limitation. Judging by that criteria Workings seems to fit the bill very well, while Crafting seems to fit point one better than point two. I guess you could say that's simply another complaint about it being cumbersome.

                Maybe I just need to find or make a variant of the craft system I like. One could very nearly use the Workings system to replace Craft.
                so answering addressing the differences here, about what they are capable of, crafting, like sorcerous workings and wyld forging, are capable of creating, but it is the only means of creating that mortals have access to, and although you could feasibly do a working to create a sword or a city wall, the question is why would you want to? when it comes to mundane making of things crafting is clearly the superior. Adding to this, when i craft something, even an artifact, i get to determine what that does, how it works, i can never craft a god, but i can make automata en mass if i wanted to, using craft genesis i could even create a peoples of similar stats en mass given enough time, the decision is up to me the crafter how i want it to turn out.

                This can also be done with wyld shaping, however there is added danger to this, namely being the creatures of the wyld coming to attack you for trying to alter their perfectly nice chaos, also there is the drawback that the wyld is a limited resource, and once you use wyld shaping it consumes that area that was wyld in the first place

                workings let you go above and beyond either of these two, and let you alter the very nature of reality, but unless you go finesse 5 that is not going to be exactly as you want. so it is powerful but not exactly precise, so while i might use it to enchant, and i certainly do as i invest in all three of these, it is not something i would use to summon an artifact from nothing, as it would be supremely easier to craft an artifact i desire with much less chance for it to go haywire.

                so while they all three have their drawbacks, with some overlap, they all have their unique qualities that make them amazing and would certainly be useful to a character who wants to create large and powerful works.

                personally i plan to use all three in compliment to each other, most easily demonstrated by working abilities to create wyld pockets, which will then be consumed by wyld shaping refunding their xp cost, which can then be used for materials in crafting.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by BunniRabbi View Post
                  There are two primary points. The first is that both Workings and Craft seem like something that should exist in the setting, as they are clearly part of the genre and fun. The second point is that they both need some limitation. Judging by that criteria Workings seems to fit the bill very well, while Crafting seems to fit point one better than point two. I guess you could say that's simply another complaint about it being cumbersome.
                  ​Well let's explore this a bit; when you say that crafting doesn't seem to fit the point of having a limitation well, do you mean it seems to not be very limited, or its limiting mechanism doesn't work well, or something else?


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                  • #10
                    Well, just on the terms of your own post, OP... seems like we've immediately got questions like: How difficult is it to get Crafting Exp, of various colors, vs real/Solar exp? How much exp do you have to spend out to achieve various particular ends in different cases? (Or; what's "purchasing power parity", I guess, of each "currency"?) Even more importantly, how friendly does each one play our with different player creativity and inspiration in practice?

                    Seems really difficult to actually work this out, as the systems themselves are (deliberately?) complicated enough to resist us getting easy answers to these questions. I assume we can only go by whether a good large set of people who've played a lot of RAW Ex3 say "Oh, yeah, X totally sucks and was outclassed by Y in importance all the time" or go "Eh, turns out it was really hard to call and both were pretty good/equally bad" more often in practice.

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                    • #11
                      Sometjing I realized recently was that Crafting gets you what you want and Workings always get you something. You can fail to craft something and you might not like the result of your working, but trying to craft a Daiklave will never get you a Dire Chain and once you start manipulating reality something is gonna happen.

                      As for whether Crafting is too complicated, here's my advice. If you want to make artifacts, there are guides out there to tell you which charms you need, but if you just wanna be a chef or carpenter or something, all you really need is Craftsman Needs No Tools. Once you have that, you'll also get the Excellency, and that will likely be enough to handle most things.


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