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Healing Crippling Damage for Dummies

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  • Childofthesun1
    replied
    Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
    Childofthesun1

    I don't mind language, I have myself had to moderate my posts quite a bit after being the target of a few moderations by the community management. So, personally you're forgiven. But I would advise a bit more restrain on the future, if you don't want to be formally chastised by those who can do that.

    One thing I would like you to pay attention to is that I didn't call you prejudiced. I believe people are far too complex to be judged through a forum.

    I called your thoughts and views on the subject prejudiced. Because the way you expressed them are indicative of prejudice.

    Now, I don't see anyone here arguing that disabilities are "good". I'm pretty sure most anybody would rather live in a regular body, if that was a real choice.

    I understand not wanting to deal with the ramifications of permanent body damage. I myself never played a character with disabilities, it doesn't appeal to me.

    But there are many alternatives to remedy the condition, and those were offered throughout the thread.

    But you seemed to not be satisfied with those and started arguing that not having disabilities was a sort of bar to be cleared for a "real Solar" experience. That is where I strongly disagree with you. The way you tried to make your case for Solar regeneration of limbs was simply a very bad way to go about it. That is all that I'm arguing.

    So... I'm not saying you are a good or bad person. I don't know you. I just called out your arguments for what I perceive them as.
    "Your predjudiced views" is significantly harder than "calling out my arguments for what you perceive them as". I am a vague aggregate of my views after all. I hope you understand why I took that personally. Regardless, I appreciate the explanation.

    Anyways, we argued like adults and I think came to an amicable understanding. That's all I really care about. All due respect to mods of course, they do their jobs for free after all. But we have enough difficulty understanding each other through screens and text that I find using anything other than conversational english really hampers understanding.


    So I'm baffled that with all Solars are capable of, all the reality bending shenanigans, amputation is their one, non-natively-solvable weakness. And for beings of superlative skill, it's such a massive one, too! They have native healing, but it just isn't enough for limbs for some reason.

    Now, that's just my point of view. There have been some excellent arguments all around. I just remain unconvinced that even if healing a wound and an amputation are different on a biological level, they really aren't on a story level especially when magic is involved. Like, how has no Solar found a way to deal with this issue with Resistance? It's just the one feat of healing Resistance can't handle? Hole in the chest, organ damage, broken bones, that's fine, but we draw the line at restoring the human body to it's natural shape to allow them to practice their skills as they know them? That's so bizarre to me.

    Anyways, I think you all get my point, so I'll drop the subject unless pressed for further discussion.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    It generally takes months (depends on your rolls), but Piff (the OP) was happy for it to take years, so I guess that's not an issue.

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  • TGUEIROS
    replied
    Wholeness-Restoring Meditation speaks on the topic, specifically.

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  • Childofthesun1
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

    I know, but I was making the point, that this argument isn't actually "is it okay for Solars to be able to regenerate limbs", which, in fact, they already can (sloooowly), but "is it okay for them to get the ability through Resistance as well as Medicine".
    Can they slowly regenerate limbs? Is that hidden away somewhere in 3e core?
    Last edited by Childofthesun1; 07-26-2017, 04:32 PM.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Childofthesun1 View Post

    I more meant "Internally through the purview of Resistance", but sure, that works too.
    I know, but I was making the point, that this argument isn't actually "is it okay for Solars to be able to regenerate limbs", which, in fact, they already can (sloooowly), but "is it okay for them to get the ability through Resistance as well as Medicine".

    Leave a comment:


  • TGUEIROS
    replied
    Childofthesun1

    I don't mind language, I have myself had to moderate my posts quite a bit after being the target of a few moderations by the community management. So, personally you're forgiven. But I would advise a bit more restrain on the future, if you don't want to be formally chastised by those who can do that.

    One thing I would like you to pay attention to is that I didn't call you prejudiced. I believe people are far too complex to be judged through a forum.

    I called your thoughts and views on the subject prejudiced. Because the way you expressed them are indicative of prejudice.

    Now, I don't see anyone here arguing that disabilities are "good". I'm pretty sure most anybody would rather live in a regular body, if that was a real choice.

    I understand not wanting to deal with the ramifications of permanent body damage. I myself never played a character with disabilities, it doesn't appeal to me.

    But there are many alternatives to remedy the condition, and those were offered throughout the thread.

    But you seemed to not be satisfied with those and started arguing that not having disabilities was a sort of bar to be cleared for a "real Solar" experience. That is where I strongly disagree with you. The way you tried to make your case for Solar regeneration of limbs was simply a very bad way to go about it. That is all that I'm arguing.

    So... I'm not saying you are a good or bad person. I don't know you. I just called out your arguments for what I perceive them as.
    Last edited by TGUEIROS; 07-26-2017, 03:53 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Childofthesun1
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

    Well, it's 4 charms and essence 3, but to be fair, when you can save yourself from death by taking a crippling wound, I wouldn't want it to be too easy (though the time taken is, I think, the key difficulty, rather than the prerequisites). And it's not really, really hard (4 charms isn't that many).
    I more meant "Internally through the purview of Resistance", but sure, that works too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Childofthesun1
    replied
    Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post
    You can eyeroll until your eyes look like rolling slot machines.

    Doesn't change the fact that your prejudiced views are just that, prejudiced views. Nothing keeps a one armed person from being a master of Single Point Shining into the Void. Nothing keeps a double leg amputee with magic prosthetic legs from being a Solar Athlete. Nothing keeps a paraplegic from being a Solar Bureaucrat/Occultist/Linguist/Mastermind/etc...

    And none of that makes them B-list to your "perfect bodies" A-list.

    You think that any disability a person has makes them antithecal to a "Solar concept".

    We're just telling you your thoughts are wrong. And ugly, that is.
    Ok, don't take this the wrong way, but EDIT CENSORED you for telling me I'm prejudiced. In your defense, you don't know me and didn't have much context for the discussion. But seriously, don't be a dick. We believe basically the same thing here, I'm sure. And I hope you'll be able to forgive my flare of language and anger at being judged, just like I forgive you for judging me.

    So, when Jamie Lannister got his hand cut off in game of thrones, he was undeniably reduced. The tool he used to practice his craft his entire life was ripped away from him. If you think amputation isn't a serious thing, you're in denial.

    Can handicapped persons go on to do great things, relearn their craft, or find clever ways around their handicap? Of course! Tyrion is one of the best characters in Game of Thrones, and his body is a clear social and physical handicap. Disabled people struggle through tough situations I can't imagine myself being strong enough to face.

    Not to put words into the OPs mouth, but Christ, if the OP or myself don't want our characters to go through the worst body horror people can go through without a simple way to deal with it, it's a crime? In a game we play for FUN? Sure, a good ST will fix it easily enough, but how many of us have good STs?

    But that's getting pretty far afield from the core here, which was "aknowledging amputation as being bad isn't predjudiced. It's acknowledging amputation as being bad. Respect and celebrate all people, duh. Also, Solars losing a limb could REALLY cramp their excellence!"

    And a Solar athlete with cyberlegs doesn't count as handicapped anymore than Cyborg does. They're god-damned superheroes.



    As an aside, I think the real issue is the change in base state. A blind swordsman is adapted to being blind, having been so for a long time. Jamie Lannister just losses the skill that made him special. In one case, the handicap is present but manageable. Another is fresh and terrible and traumatic and so hard to work around. One of those sounds like fun for me to play. The other sounds like the opposite of what I want to deal with in my escapism.
    Last edited by Childofthesun1; 07-26-2017, 05:38 PM. Reason: Apologies for the strong language.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Childofthesun1 View Post
    That's why I'm surprised you can't just regenerate limbs with an easy to get charm.
    Well, it's 4 charms and essence 3, but to be fair, when you can save yourself from death by taking a crippling wound, I wouldn't want it to be too easy (though the time taken is, I think, the key difficulty, rather than the prerequisites). And it's not really, really hard (4 charms isn't that many).
    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 07-26-2017, 02:42 PM.

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  • TGUEIROS
    replied
    You can eyeroll until your eyes look like rolling slot machines.

    Doesn't change the fact that your prejudiced views are just that, prejudiced views. Nothing keeps a one armed person from being a master of Single Point Shining into the Void. Nothing keeps a double leg amputee with magic prosthetic legs from being a Solar Athlete. Nothing keeps a paraplegic from being a Solar Bureaucrat/Occultist/Linguist/Mastermind/etc...

    And none of that makes them B-list to your "perfect bodies" A-list.

    You think that any disability a person has makes them antithecal to a "Solar concept".

    We're just telling you your thoughts are wrong. And ugly, that is.
    Last edited by TGUEIROS; 07-26-2017, 02:31 PM.

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  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by Childofthesun1 View Post
    Dumb question. Why is it out of theme for Solars to regenerate from crippling injuries?
    Because healing them is easily one of the most powerful things that Solar Medicine can do.

    Also.

    Originally posted by Childofthesun1 View Post
    But it's extraordinarily difficult for my Solar swordsman to be a swordsman with both hands cut off. Or missing a leg. Or whatever. It's pretty heavily damaging to a character concept or vision of a character to deal with this. That's why I'm surprised you can't just regenerate limbs with an easy to get charm.
    Aside from edge cases from a short list of enemies, most of the time amputation is going to be an issue to your PC is when they really should have died.
    Letting them just grow stuff back seems really cheap in that context.
    Last edited by Lioness; 07-26-2017, 12:47 PM.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Childofthesun1 View Post
    Cripes, all the eyeroll I can manage.
    Aaaand that's the limit.

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  • Childofthesun1
    replied
    Cripes, all the eyeroll I can manage.

    So, edited that in to prevent double posting sorry. The pace of these forums is hard to keep up with on my phone between work.

    Of course physically disabled people can be heroes. But it's extraordinarily difficult for my Solar swordsman to be a swordsman with both hands cut off. Or missing a leg. Or whatever. It's pretty heavily damaging to a character concept or vision of a character to deal with this. That's why I'm surprised you can't just regenerate limbs with an easy to get charm.

    Some amputation fits characters of course, especially lost eyes or fingers or whatever. It's of course an asthetic choice for your character that would remain.

    Any assertion that I took a shot at people with disabilities is absurd. But I think most of us are looking to play Crouching Tiger, not something a star tasteless as Crippled Masters. How most Solars don't end up there in such a violent age is frankly mistifying.

    Of course, all that is from looking too closely at a game that shouldn't put up with that kind of scrutiny.

    I'll read all of your replies later, as of course they deserve discussion. But, y'know, work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    What I find from the other Resistance Charms is that they're mythic extrapolations from people conditioning their bodies to take physical punishment better; you can undergo training to have tougher skin and muscle layers so that physical strikes cause less meaningful damage.

    ​Flying is extrapolated from athletic ability, further supplemented by iconic hero imagery. Divine medicine is extrapolated from the skills of a physician. Cutting a blade of golden light from the wake of a blade is extrapolated from swordsmanship.

    ​Restoring an entirely absent limb is something with a much less firm basis for extrapolation.

    ​Heh, I keep thinking of the Ocean Group dub of Dragonball Z, where they downplayed Tien Shinhan having his forearm punched off by adding in a line about how he would grow it back.

    ​Or the time Homer Simpson ignorantly asked if his arms would grow back when told they needed to be amputated to free him from a pair of vending machines.

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  • Boston123
    replied
    Originally posted by Childofthesun1 View Post

    Well, we have charms that make injuries heal faster or vanish in a flash already. It's not much of a jump between "heal good" and "heal good". Block the impossible, see the invisible, but you're definitely not healing the unhealable. It just seems like such a random limitation.

    As far as genetic splicing, I don't know. It's clearly beyond current science. But, animals regrow limbs. It's clearly possible within the laws of physics. Modifying how our body treats injuries or introducing a foreign agent (nanites, cybernetics, whatever) should make human limb regeneration permissible within the laws of physics.

    Point being, better healing is more a raw extension of human ability that flying, perfect defenses, treating injury with a touch, the list goes on.


    Also, I feel a crippled solar is absolutely antithetical to what a solar is conceptually: humanity turned to eleven. The best of the best, bar none.
    *Some* animals regrow limbs. Usually the simpler ones. Take the leg off a dog or a cow and it won't grow back.

    Same thing with humans. We don't regrow limbs.

    Exalts already have *better* healing: they recuperate from wounds levels of magnitude faster than baseline humanity, heal perfectly, with no muscle or nerve damage, can't develop sepsis, and can't die from even the most virulent of diseases. In fact, the one thing that Exalted are specifically prevented from recuperating from is severed or destroyed limbs.

    As 'good' as Solars are, they are still human. All those superawesome things you refer to are explicitly supernatural. They don't just happen, or are intrinsic to the Solar.

    Finally, there is a canon Solar with a severed limb, right in the corebook. It.... doesn't slow him down at all.

    Leave a comment:

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