Immaculate Order vs Immaculate Faith

[glamourweaver]

I'm trying to recall if I came up with this idea, read it from someone else online, or if it was printed in canon somewhere.

The Immaculate Order teaches that the Immaculate Dragons were the manifest embodied 5 Elemental Dragons themselves. The Immaculate Faith holds that they were exceptional Dragon-Blooded who through their deeds and righteousness achieved unity with the 5 Elemental Dragons in their martyrdom, as can others who follow in their footsteps.

[norraba]

i remember reading something like this somewhere before when someone was discussing the differences between the immaculate teaching of lockshy and the realm, with the belief that lockshy maintained the shogunate era teachings.

[glamourweaver]

I made a post about that recently on the headcanon thread about how the idea of the Immaculate Dragons originated, but I can't remember if the "Lookshy sees the Immaculate Dragons as exceptionalism Dragonblooded who achieved unity with the dragons" bit was mine originally or if I adapted that headcanon to a distinction in canon...

[Blaque]

If I remember correctly, to some extent the dogma of the two are the same. They use the same texts, and generally woudl probably run on the same idea of the origins of the Immaculate Philosophy. The diversions seemt o be more in practice of the Philosophy compared with the extremely organized Immaculate Order and the somewhat more as I gather less esoteric and more generally streamlined Immaculate faith that's ran by the Order of Chaplanry.

The most we ever got on the faith was what was described with Lookshy in the origina Exalted: the Outcaste. There I it's less the differences of the dragons themselves, and more an extra layer of the virtuous warrior, and some kind of lofty focus on virtue ethics stuff. none of this actually really goes against the stuff the Realm does in thsoe areas, save I think rpesentation. It seems more about emphasizing good behaviors for social ideal big men versus some "know your place, stay there" midnset (kind of Aristotlelian Vritues and Samurai Warrior Code versus the Realm's combination of dharma and the tao).

This also means that there are a lot of places we are sure they do overlap. They believe in the DB role as intermediaries with spirits, though are a lot less overtly about doing it all over the world as the Realm. They don't have as much emphasis on personal cultivation, so rather than monks there are volunteer Chaplains who are still part of the military and who can if theyw ant become sorcerer-exorcists. And they still have Wyld Hunts.

I think a big thing to think of is how reliigous schisms on Earth work more than them being some sort of weird different thing form eachother entirely. Though this can lead to a lot of doctrinal things that do result in pretty different religions, and it's not beyond the OP, I think the stuff there are something that might be from a thread soemwhere that is not quite what the original conflict of the two described.

[glamourweaver]

Ok then - at my own table (not claiming this is all canon):

Immaculate Order
- Organized religious hierarchy, monastic
- Highly Proselytizing - the Immaculate Philosophy is concerned with the proper order for all the world, especially righteous mortal subservience, and keeping the terrestrial gods in line
- While Dragon-Blooded are taught to emulate the Immaculate Dragons' virtues as the path to breaking the cycle of reincarnation and achieving unity with them, the Immaculate Order also vehemently defends the Dragon-Blooded right-to-rule, and thus will teach that the more decadent perks of rulership are part of the natural order, and a Dragon-Blooded who still serves the Realm well will likely be a monk who can achieve greater spiritual purity in a future life, so their current hobbies are of little concern
- The Immaculate Texts are formal documents that are claimed to date back to the early Shogunate recording the triumphs of the Immaculate Dragons over the Anathema and their teachings from first hand disciples
- The most blatant theological difference: the Order teaches that the Immaculate Dragons were the literal manifestations of Five Elemental Dragons
- Vigilant against even a hint of ancestor worship (other than the Cult of the Empress which is in a state of ambiguity between heresy and sanction)

Immaculate Faith
- Chaplains are simply officers in the 7th Legion. No separate institution of their own, non-monastic
- Mostly Non-Proselytizing, at least outside the 7th Legion itself. The faith is about discipline and righteousness and bettering oneself and it must be sought out; any mortal hoping to advance in the Legions or serve as a Gunzosha better prove they have that discipline and righteousness though
- While non-proselytizing to outsiders, the Immaculate Faith is far more rigorous on the discipline and virtue it expects from Lookshy Dragon-Blooded than what the Immaculate Order expects from Dynasts outside the Order itself. The religion is after all almost entirely focused on Dragon-Blooded proper behavior
- No Shogunate era documents Lookshy possesses include the entire Immaculate Texts the Order upholds as the canon, though many of the fragments they do posses matches it, while other fragments do not. Their most commonly read texts are commentaries on these fragments organizing their teachings into a coherent philosophy of the proper behavior of the Upright Soldier that date from the late Shogunate and early days of Lookshy.
- The most blatant theological difference: the Immaculate Faith holds that the Immaculate Dragons were exceptional Dragon-Blooded who through their deeds and martyrdom achieved unity with the Five Elemental Dragons in death, showing the way for others
- While not true ancestor worshipers (usually), the fact that other past Dragon-Blooded heroes can be said to have followed in the footsteps of the Immaculates, mean that many of those heroes are also honored as icons and examples, often in ways the Immaculate Order would say cuts far too close to Ancestor worship


The Immaculate Faith does not have a standing "Wyld Hunt" like the Immaculate Order does, but that doesn't make the 7th Legion any more tolerant of Anathema in the Riverlands (though they haven't been able to build the full tactical response they need to Mask of Winter and his Anathema yet). Being willing to die battling Anathema is one of the primary principles of righteous Dragon-Blooded behavior that the Immaculate Faith teaches. They are however far less concerned about rogue gods and the mortals who worship them. Lookshy and Great Forks need each other as allies, and they aren't going to burn that bridge over religious differences. The Immaculate Faith just sees such situations as bad for the souls of the mortals involved, but that's their own responsibility. The Faith will be there in their next life if they are ready. Zealots who want to suppress the Hundred God Heresy in the Riverlands exist, but they're seen as fringe extremists and have no support from the upper brass for any such campaign.

[Lundgren]

Considering the Shogunate era was to quite an extent a warring state era, there might also have been multiple versions of the Immaculate teachings back then. This might even have been by design, as people being busy arguing (and fighting) over minutiae seldom questions the big picture.

[Roswynn]

I'm probably going to reiterate most of what you and others have already written, but this may help me refresh what I know of the setting, so I'm not doing it for entirely altruistic reasons...

Considering the lore in Ex3 is close to how it was in the first edition, I also consulted the Ex1 books to try and extrapolate a sort of canon.

Since it's... quite long, I'll spoiler it:

The Realm's Immaculate Philosophy

• every living being has their place, must respect those below and obey to those above. When proper obedience is not given chaos follows for everyone, possibly including bloodshed. Accept your role and strive to perfect it (dharma, I think, as Blaque said)
• the Five Elemental Dragons - perfect beings which spawned the world and master all its essence flows, manifested in the form of the Immaculate Dragons - Dragon-Blooded who banished the Anathema and helped rebuild Creation, to better teach the path to enlightenment. Each left prayers, practices, examples and lessons gathered in the Immaculate Texts, you can study them to know the path to enlightenment. They're intertwined to present a coherent vision and avoid schism
• schism is tolerated only insofar as the new faction recognizes Dragon-Blooded spiritual and political primacy
• souls approach perfection, as understood through the example of the Immaculate Dragons, by harnessing essence, thus Dragon-Blooded are as near perfection as can be imagined, and charged with bringing other souls along the path to enlightenment. Hence it is right and proper for everyone else to heed their words, since it's inconceivable they'll make a mistake
• doctrine of spiritual elevation through service, humility, abstemiousness
• You reach perfection by joining the Five Elemental Dragons
• aniconic - no images or sculpture, because they equal worship. Only the Five Elemental Dragons can be depicted. Dragon-Blooded are permitted to do homage to spirits and can have depictive art in very special circumstances (like decorations of hunting animals, or even Wyld beasts, on their armor). Orthodox Dragon-Blooded avoid this kind of art
• worship of the Unconquered Sun is thought to be dead, but when it occurs it's particularly disliked, as it exalts the sun over the Five Elemental Dragons. It is also linked to slave revolts
• heretics who advocate tearing down the Immaculate Order are executed publicly to avoid chaos and distractions to society and give the heretic's soul a chance to start over towards enlightenment
• the Hundred Gods Heresy is the worship of deities w/o Immaculate moderation, only Dragon-Blooded (being the nearest to enlightenment) should treat with and make sacrifices to gods, to prevent that they enslave the people (or worse) and that the corruption of the Celestial Bureaucracy grows. On most of the Blessed Isle any kind of worship material is banned. In its hinterlands and in the capitals of the Realm's tributaries worship sites are allowed only if controlled by the Immaculate monks, and private worship is either discouraged or forbidden. In rural areas of the tributary states people keep worshipping mostly normally, but on a small scale and without permanent temples or shrines - no huge festivals
• if a group of outcastes accept the Philosophy but doesn't submit to the Realm, it is tolerated
• everything abhorrent to stable & prosperous life is Anathema. Solars, Lunars & Abyssals are always Anathema, and Solars & Lunars are the best known to the common people (by anima and caste marks, not by names and definitions). Liminals (who can sometimes be useful), Fair Folk, beastmen, elementals and demons who threaten Realm interests can be, as can gods and their Exigents (who served the Solar Anathema & are considered very lowly in the spiritual hierarchy, but not beyond redemption through multiple lifetimes) who openly rebel against the Immaculate Philosophy - common people who suspect they're witnessing one such Anathema should go fetch a monk or ten. The Immaculate monks organize and lead Wyld Hunts against the Anathema, and these are holy rites outside the law (you can still commit crimes during a Wyld Hunt, in that case you'll be punished). Sidereals can be mistaken for Exigents, but those who know of them never declare Wyld Hunts against them - they're reclusive Chosen who work to uphold the proper & fated order of the world under the dominion of the Realm

Lookshy's Immaculate Faith

• personal responsibility & duty
• the devout do not proselityze. It's a private thing. Seekers must ask a Chaplain, the Chaplain won't come and impose their faith. If asked, though, they're happy to explain how the faith works
• Exaltation can be a reward for excellence and perfection, but it's never a sign of inherent worthiness or respect. An exalt must be judged by their deeds
• the Righteous Warrior is a fundamental concept. It's the ideal of the perfect soldier, who can win any battle but knows when not to fight & find another solution. Everyone knows they'll never match the ideal - not even the Five Immaculate Dragons did - but it's the striving that counts - excellence comes through striving and it's its own reward.
• 5 major pillars/precepts - honor, loyalty, prowess, compassion, resolve. About a dozen lesser virtues, almost as important (temperance, conservation, introspection, valor etc)
• shares many of the same texts with the Realm's Immaculate Philosophy, but often gives different interpretations, and texts originating in the Realm are not really heeded
• stresses role of gods as part of the Celestial Bureaucracy, just like in the Realm, but is more pragmatic
• no Wyld Hunt in the Scavenger Lands for security reasons. Still, Anathema are not usually tolerated in the city. Wyld Hunts dispatched reactively, when the Legion becomes aware of them. Not seen as holy quests, it's eliminating threats to peace instead

I've looked around to see if the difference in interpretation of the Immaculate Dragons that you mentioned between the Philosophy and the Faith was elaborated upon anywhere, but I couldn't find it. It is a mystery!

[glamourweaver]

Of course now we'll have Prasad's third Immaculate ideology.

[glamourweaver]

*just realized I was calling the River Province the Riverlands because of A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones*

[Saur Ops Specialist]

*just realized I was calling the River Province the Riverlands because of A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones*

Technically, the River Province refers to only about the first third or so of the Scavenger Lands in EX3.

[Sunder the Gold]

Would the Sidereal Exalted have any reason to want the Terrestrial Exalted to forget the truth about the Five Elementals Dragons, and confuse them for five Dragon-Blooded who may or may not have existed?

Or, from the other end, why would the Sidereal Exalted take credit away from actual Dragon-Blooded who fought in the Usurpation and give the credit to those Dragon spirits who supposedly manifested themselves to join the fight?

[Epee102]

Would the Sidereal Exalted have any reason to want the Terrestrial Exalted to forget the truth about the Five Elementals Dragons, and confuse them for five Dragon-Blooded who may or may not have existed?

Or, from the other end, why would the Sidereal Exalted take credit away from actual Dragon-Blooded who fought in the Usurpation and give the credit to those Dragon spirits who supposedly manifested themselves to join the fight?

For the first: If they want to inspire dragon blooded to further acts of anathema destruction, it helps for the anathema's greatest enemies to have been dragon blooded. If Pasiap, Danaad, Mela, etc were once dragonblooded, you could achive their feats as well (Parsaad in my campaign goes a step further and asserts you could even become Elemental dragons as they did, but that's beside the point).

For the second: It would enforce a notion of Divine Right on the side of the Dragonblooded. The proof that their cause was righteous was because the most enlightened beings came to help (it also minimizes the damage of the Realm. If it was really so bad, then the Dragons would have stopped it, right?)

[Roswynn]

Sorry, what's Prasad/Parsaad?

[Piff]

Here is a question - as the faith expands, it must inevitably expand beyond the reach of Dragonblooded. That is to say, eventually the number of people who are practicing Immaculates becomes far greater than the Dragonblooded can 'service' as religious symbols and foundational elements simply due to population concerns. So how might the faith evolve in isolation? What does an Immaculate Faith that is forced to DE-emphasize the Exalted do?

What if an entire major culture or population center existed for centuries without a living Dragonblood to question or reference? Would they turn the Dragonblooded into Godly Saints? Or would local authorities... eager to legitimize themselves... attack the foundational elements of the faith as unimportant or outdated? Or would they try to suggest they were 'spiritual' Dragonblooded themselves? Can the faith even survive without Exalted?

[TGUEIROS]

Sorry, what's Prasad/Parsaad?

Prasad is a new locale in the Ex3 core. It is by the Dreaming Sea and is home to a Dragon Blooded aristocracy. That is from memory, maybe a bit off. But I'm sure it is a Db run Society and pretty sure that it is in the Dreaming Sea.