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Moonsilver, the boring child of the Magical Materials in 3e?

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  • Moonsilver, the boring child of the Magical Materials in 3e?

    Maybe it is just me but the way moonsilver gets described in 3e is really rather boring. It can change its form. Sometimes a lot but usually just a little bit. Attacks with it are big and obvious or subtle and sneaky. It unites weapon and wielder in primal instinct of mystic insight which is vague enough to be almost unusable and really doesn't tell me much about how it is used in non-weapon ways. It seems lacking especially compared with the other magical materials. What else could it have? What else should it have? I could see there being associations with purity, uses in providing control and finesse to sorcery, emotions and emotional ties as well as truths. Maybe I am wrong and I just don't see what it already has or maybe you agree with me? What are your thoughts about how moonsilver in 3e is presented?

  • #2
    I've been kind of holding off until Arms of the Chosen to see if we get a little more drill-down on it myself.

    However, Sunder the Gold has made several threads with some great ideas. I'm certain he'd have much to contribute to this.
    Moonsilver Artifacts
    Intuition and Insight
    Heartbreaker
    God-Eater


    I post Artifacts in this thread. How I make them is in this thread.
    I have made many tools and other things for 3rd Edition. I now host all of my creations on my Google site: The Vault of the Unsung Hero

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    • #3
      I too would like to see what changes that Arms of the Chosen might bring but since I don't have it now gotta muse where I can. Thanks for the other stuff though will give it a read.

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      • #4
        Misery regrets company, but appreciates not being alone.

        By which I mean, I'm sorry that someone else is unhappy, but gratified that someone else seems to have come to similar conclusions on their own.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The Unsung Hero View Post
          I've been kind of holding off until Arms of the Chosen to see if we get a little more drill-down on it myself.

          However, Sunder the Gold has made several threads with some great ideas. I'm certain he'd have much to contribute to this.
          Moonsilver Artifacts
          Intuition and Insight
          Heartbreaker
          God-Eater
          I really appreciate you hunting up and linking my threads.

          I do not, however, actually have much to contribute to further discussion. Everything I could think to say, at this time, I already said in those posts.


          I suppose the biggest thing I could say is that, at present, I would make Leviathan's moonsilver direlance trident, Islebreaker, into a black jade artifact.

          I couldn't think of a satisfying way for a moonsilver artifact to qualify for a name like "Island Breaker" without the same-old, same-old trick of "grow really big for one attack". Sure, that's cool, but it seems more appropriate for Monkey King staves, hammers, axes, and chopping swords. You could have the outer tines spin around the central point to make a kind of gigantic drill, and that's neat, but...

          But honestly, for a guy who became Admiral of the Deliberative's entire navy, and who spends most of his time in or under the water, and who (in First Edition) loved the sea more than he loved any person, and who has the power to transform into waterborne giants without proper hands...

          Honestly, having a 5-or-N/A-dot artifact that can control water seems so much more useful.

          His native Lunar magic is already excellent for melee combat, but Lunar Exalted have traditionally sucked at ranged magic compared to the Ability-based Hosts. Being able to switch from his bestial forms to his human form with a black jade marvel would allow him to completely change his combat approach, letting him strike at range and control the battlefield in a way Luna's Gifts would never really allow.

          I don't even care that a Dragon-Blood would be capable of using his famous trident better than he could. In fact, I welcome the stories this could create, with a Dragon-Blooded hero or villain specifically seeking to steal the Sea King's weapon and use it for herself.


          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by BogMod View Post
            What else could it have? What else should it have? I could see there being associations with purity, uses in providing control and finesse to sorcery, emotions and emotional ties as well as truths. Maybe I am wrong and I just don't see what it already has or maybe you agree with me? What are your thoughts about how moonsilver in 3e is presented?
            An idea that makes sense to me is moonsilver having potential for hypnosis and mental suggestions. Illusions through delusion and hallucination, rather than holograms and sounds. Of course, certain optical illusions and sleights would be made possible through moonsilver's ability to change shape and volume/mass.

            Orichalcum probably has similar potential, only it probably could produce light and sound for sensory illusions.


            Perhaps a stronger idea is this: Moonsilver might be unrivaled among the magical materials for its ability to incite metamorphosis.

            Starmetal can translate concepts into other concepts, and orichalcum can convert energies into other energies, but moonsilver makes the most sense as the one that transforms physical things into other physical things.


            Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

            My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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            • #7
              I think that Moonsilver artifacts should change reality because they have a portion of the Wyld in them. A Moonsilver sword should transform its opponents into statues of marble or swarms of butterflies when it kills them (each weapon having its signature kill result). A Moonsilver shield should transform mortal weapons wielded by the enemy into ice scuptures or irate badgers with a successful defense. A Moonsilver helmet should aid perception by altering light and sound that pass near it or aid defense by twisting gravity enough to force an enemy to miss. And every Moonsilver artifact should be unique in some small way.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                I think that Moonsilver artifacts should change reality because they have a portion of the Wyld in them.
                That's not true of Luna's Essence or metal in this Edition.


                A Moonsilver sword should transform its opponents into statues of marble or swarms of butterflies when it kills them (each weapon having its signature kill result). A Moonsilver shield should transform mortal weapons wielded by the enemy into ice scuptures or irate badgers with a successful defense. A Moonsilver helmet should aid perception by altering light and sound that pass near it or aid defense by twisting gravity enough to force an enemy to miss.
                These things sound like the combination of moonsilver and starmetal, to me. Excellent ideas for hybrid-metal weapons, but not entirely appropriate for moonsilver alone.


                Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                  That's not true of Luna's Essence or metal in this Edition.
                  But par for the course for an Aya Tari post.
                  No, we don't do this.
                  Last edited by Lioness; 08-14-2017, 11:50 AM.

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                  • #10
                    To be honest... I don't see the boring nature that the OP attributes to Moonsilver. Quite the opposite in fact... for I see a lot of potential in the kind of evocations that are possible. Yes, it may not reshape itself to the degree it has in the past, but it still provides a lot of possibilities. Such weapons could be harder to parry or evade as they flow past one's defenses... and even soaking their damage could be harder as they bite deeper into ones flesh... possibly even leaving fragments that poison or continue to damage an opponent for some time after the weapon has been retrieved. The subtle aspect could help with illusionary magics... one of the specialties of the Lunars... and can further help with making a weapon harder to avoid (as light reflects and refracts of it's almost liquid surface making it hard for an opponent to know where it is... even creating the illusion that there is more than one blade to evade or parry).

                    ​Such weapons can also guide a user, granting them an instinctual knowledge of their use... possibly providing a small bonus to strikes and parries... even to evasion as the weapon instinctively tries to pull them out of the way of an incoming attack. Disarming someone with a Moonsilver weapon could also be more difficult as the two become almost one... with the weapon being more of an extension of the users body rather than a weapon he holds... not unlike the talons of an eagle or the fangs of a tiger.

                    ​Combined with the natural charms of the Lunar Exalted, these weapons would be truly terrifying... resonating with their abilities in ways that go beyond what even the Solars could draw out with their mastery of Evocations (yes, the Solars still get the full benefits of the Evocations due to their mastery of such magic... but without Lunar charms that can enhance that further, their mastery is limited).

                    ​I really don't see the limitations that others seem to thing that Moonsilver has... to me it has a lot more potential to do far more than any other Magical Material... save perhaps the various versions of Jade.


                    There are three types of people in the world... those who can count and those who can't.
                    I reject your reality and substitute my own!

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                    • #11
                      Generally speaking, I just ignore the "usually just a little bit" part of changing its form, at which point it's Ruyi Jingu Bang and Valentine and Gae Bolg and Sylphrena and the T-1000's arms. At that point, my issues are less "making it cool" and more "pushing myself to come up with Artifacts that aren't Moonsilver and/or Jade".

                      Later books may push me back towards canon. They may not.


                      "For me, there's no fundamental conflict between really loving something and also seeing it as very profoundly flawed." -- Jay Eddidin

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Shadowstripe View Post
                        To be honest... I don't see the boring nature that the OP attributes to Moonsilver. Quite the opposite in fact... for I see a lot of potential in the kind of evocations that are possible. Yes, it may not reshape itself to the degree it has in the past, but it still provides a lot of possibilities. Such weapons could be harder to parry or evade as they flow past one's defenses... and even soaking their damage could be harder as they bite deeper into ones flesh... possibly even leaving fragments that poison or continue to damage an opponent for some time after the weapon has been retrieved. The subtle aspect could help with illusionary magics... one of the specialties of the Lunars... and can further help with making a weapon harder to avoid (as light reflects and refracts of it's almost liquid surface making it hard for an opponent to know where it is... even creating the illusion that there is more than one blade to evade or parry).

                        ​Such weapons can also guide a user, granting them an instinctual knowledge of their use... possibly providing a small bonus to strikes and parries... even to evasion as the weapon instinctively tries to pull them out of the way of an incoming attack. Disarming someone with a Moonsilver weapon could also be more difficult as the two become almost one... with the weapon being more of an extension of the users body rather than a weapon he holds... not unlike the talons of an eagle or the fangs of a tiger.
                        Sorry but to me aside from the illusion aspect and possibly poison aspect going with these artifacts can attack and defend better is such a fundamentally basic aspect of weapons or armor it is almost not worth talking about unless you are making the point that it is better at that than the other metals. I just mean which metal couldn't you justify evocations that help you attack or defend with? If I ignore that aspect of things what else does it do? What if I am not making a weapon or armor?

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                        • #13
                          Yes, I agree that moonsilver needa something more. I think that having weapons that leave moonsilver shards that deal continuous damage over a scene or having armor that refuses to release a weapon that hits it would be suitable moonsilver effects.

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                          • #14
                            Moonsilver artifacts change with your size. That's basically the whole point of moonsilver. If you take the form of a Giant wolf-human hybrid your daiklave is still usable in that war form. Likewise if you transformed into something the size of a housecat that daiklave would reduce in size to match the form you are in. The whole point of moonsilver is being able to continue using the artifact no matter how large or small your shapeshifted forms are. Hence the description text. If you can see yourself changing shapes on the regular, do you want to be wearing armor that doesn't change with you? Sure it can look cool watching your armor explode when you suddenly go wolf-hybrid war form but then your ability to withstand damage also drops significantly.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Raven79 View Post
                              Moonsilver artifacts change with your size. That's basically the whole point of moonsilver. If you take the form of a Giant wolf-human hybrid your daiklave is still usable in that war form. Likewise if you transformed into something the size of a housecat that daiklave would reduce in size to match the form you are in. The whole point of moonsilver is being able to continue using the artifact no matter how large or small your shapeshifted forms are. Hence the description text. If you can see yourself changing shapes on the regular, do you want to be wearing armor that doesn't change with you? Sure it can look cool watching your armor explode when you suddenly go wolf-hybrid war form but then your ability to withstand damage also drops significantly.
                              So, yes, moonsilver armor changing with you when you go DBT is a franchise staple, makes perfect in-universe sense, and is clearly one of its selling points. The notion that the non-moonsilver grand daiklave I'm carrying is somehow unusable when my hands went from "normal human size" to "target audience for the original XBox controller size" is a slightly harder sell. Even if it's true, all that means is that moonsilver's role is "making artifacts usable at all" instead of having unique awesomeness like the other magical materials, and (importantly for this edition) makes it really hard to write compelling Evocations.

                              I have ideas for marrying the protean nature of moonsilver with the "primal instinct" bit mentioned in the core, but really, mostly what I'm looking forward to is Arms of the Chosen hopefully showing how moonsilver Evocations can be just as awesome as demon-binding orichalcum or volcanic red jade or blood-drinking soulsteel.


                              Glorious Solar Kitten

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