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Moonsilver, the boring child of the Magical Materials in 3e?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Aretii View Post

    So, yes, moonsilver armor changing with you when you go DBT is a franchise staple, makes perfect in-universe sense, and is clearly one of its selling points. The notion that the non-moonsilver grand daiklave I'm carrying is somehow unusable when my hands went from "normal human size" to "target audience for the original XBox controller size" is a slightly harder sell. Even if it's true, all that means is that moonsilver's role is "making artifacts usable at all" instead of having unique awesomeness like the other magical materials, and (importantly for this edition) makes it really hard to write compelling Evocations.

    I have ideas for marrying the protean nature of moonsilver with the "primal instinct" bit mentioned in the core, but really, mostly what I'm looking forward to is Arms of the Chosen hopefully showing how moonsilver Evocations can be just as awesome as demon-binding orichalcum or volcanic red jade or blood-drinking soulsteel.
    That would be such a minor change. I had that original xbox controller, my only gripe about it was the buttons were too hard and hurt to press for long periods of time. Fortunately they remedied that pretty fast. No doubt xbox was marketed to adults, I feel you on that. But its not a big change in hand size. Nothing like going from Human size to Giant size suddenly. Or to miniscule size. Lunars need their equipment to have that versatility. The only ones playing with an xbox in Exalted are the Celestial Incarnae, and the Primordials are wishing they never built the divine xbox I'm sure.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Raven79 View Post
      Lunars need their equipment to have that versatility.
      If the main point of moonsilver equipment is that "so Lunars can use armor and weapons" - so a quality other splats (and their magical materials) get for free, then it's really underwhelming.

      I'd rather go into putting emphasis on transformation (not of the artifact, but of the user), adaptation, deception and insight.Also madness, and, maybe, breaking the limitations (and rules).
      Last edited by Astralporing; 08-22-2017, 07:20 AM.



      The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

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      • #18
        Looking back at the description of moonsilver and considering the example of Moonlit Huntress, I do have a sudden thought on the material placing greater emphasis on mostly direct combat enhancements that are calibrated towards attacking particular kinds of enemy or under specific circumstances. A consequence of that is that it could have some of the least flashy Evocations, even compared to starmetal having the potential to give you a time skip.

        I'm sure there are people who would find that uninteresting, but what can you do?

        Originally posted by Raven79 View Post
        Hence the description text.
        What text is that now?


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        • #19
          For a context of things in the previews at GenCon in case folks missed my post on this, one of the Artifacts I got to sit and read was the Distaff, a daiklave that had this silk wrapping around it that blunted it and was pretty much impossible to tear off. The sword started as a dagger its owner had and grew up with her, and then when her kingdom got lost she wrapped it in silk and went all soul-searching and shit.

          It by default does bashing, but also does some neat tricks iwht the silk, heals, and has a final Evocation which reveals the silk isn't a peace-binding, it's a cocoon, and the sword when it comes off is reforged into some potentially entirely new thing based on the wielder's experiences and achievements.

          I honestly can't think of a material that tells the story of this sword better than moonsilver, so there's that I guess.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Blaque View Post
            For a context of things in the previews at GenCon in case folks missed my post on this, one of the Artifacts I got to sit and read was the Distaff, a daiklave that had this silk wrapping around it that blunted it and was pretty much impossible to tear off. The sword started as a dagger its owner had and grew up with her, and then when her kingdom got lost she wrapped it in silk and went all soul-searching and shit.

            It by default does bashing, but also does some neat tricks iwht the silk, heals, and has a final Evocation which reveals the silk isn't a peace-binding, it's a cocoon, and the sword when it comes off is reforged into some potentially entirely new thing based on the wielder's experiences and achievements.

            I honestly can't think of a material that tells the story of this sword better than moonsilver, so there's that I guess.
            Nah, Orichalcum can probably do it, too. Orichalcum can compose things like Beloved Adorei, Stormcaller, and a hinted artifact prosthetic limb that shapeshifts to match its owner's true/perfect form.

            It's called "the wish-metal" and can do practically anything.


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            • #21
              Sure, but I think that if there was something folks were gonna reach for for a blade that organically grew with a person, uses an organic shape-shifty fabric gause element to do things and who's final thing is a metamorphosis transformation emulating the change of an insect larva into its final form, I think that moonsilver is what most folks would reach for there.

              I think you also oversell orichalchum's role in the two Artifacts you name, since Adorei is more or less defined by weird/mythical sapient sword stuff, whcih fits to me orichalchum as the "blatently magic" metal, and Stormcaller is that way I think with the comments that "yang" effects tend to fit within orichalchum.

              While orichalchum is flexible, I don't think it's much bearing on the way in which moonsilver can be applied and how there is a good exmaple out htere. If the issue you have is "you can just do that with orichalchum" then you are creating a different problem than "there's not enough for moonsilver to do", since there's not really any rule that different Artifacts can't overlap in thematics.


              And stuff.
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              • #22
                Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                Sure, but I think that if there was something folks were gonna reach for for a blade that organically grew with a person, uses an organic shape-shifty fabric gause element to do things and who's final thing is a metamorphosis transformation emulating the change of an insect larva into its final form, I think that moonsilver is what most folks would reach for there.
                Yup.


                I think you also oversell orichalchum's role in the two Artifacts you name, since Adorei is more or less defined by weird/mythical sapient sword stuff, whcih fits to me orichalchum as the "blatently magic" metal
                It's hopelessly in love with Solars, animated and lively, and reflectively insightful into the hearts and minds of others. If you exchanged Magnanimous Sun Blast for a different Evocation and painted the whole thing silver, no one would guess it wasn't moonsilver. But the writer decided to make it orichalcum.


                Meanwhile, Moonlit Huntress is just bad.

                Maybe not its attunement bonus, but it's the only Evocation-baring Artifact with just a single Evocation to its name, and it's the most boring Evocation by far. Spend 1 Willpower point to gain a bucketload of Initiative and all of its passive bonuses at once. WHY? How does that play into the weapon's strategy?
                Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 08-23-2017, 08:40 PM.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                  While orichalchum is flexible, I don't think it's much bearing on the way in which moonsilver can be applied and how there is a good exmaple out htere. If the issue you have is "you can just do that with orichalchum" then you are creating a different problem than "there's not enough for moonsilver to do", since there's not really any rule that different Artifacts can't overlap in thematics.
                  Agreed. If you start from the assumption that there can be no overlap between the metals and their mechanics and themes, the system falls apart in a hurry. Both Orichalcum and Jade are flexible enough from the word go that they are stepping on a lot of thematic toes - "wishmetal" flexibility and the setting encompassing associations of the 5 elements will do that.

                  To the point on Moonsilver, I think it's continuing to suffer from two editions of weak, confusing portrayals of the lunar power and theme sets. One of the big draws of all the other materials is that they let the wielder snipe some of the thematics of other Exalts. With most core exalts, that's an easy pick. Orichalcum for excellence, Soulsteel for edginess, Starmetal for weirdness, Jade for Avatar: TLAB cosplay. As for Lunars and Moonsilver, most people are probably still confused about what being a Lunar "means," how those themes could intermingle with another exalt type, and why it would be cool enough to focus on. I strongly believe that this is an issue that will be fixed with time. Until then, - as we have concurred in sooooo many other threads - Lunars continue to be an albatross around the neck of the gameline.
                  Last edited by Steamfunk; 08-24-2017, 02:11 PM.


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                  • #24
                    How about if Moonsilver reflected the Lunar excellency, in that it always lets you show off two Attributes at once?

                    I'm not exactly sure yet how to put that into an expression of crunch, though.

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                    • #25
                      I think Arms of the Chosen has put this one to bed rather nicely.


                      <3

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                      • #26
                        Well, since I am back to the forum now...

                        I find the proposition in the first post a bit absurd.

                        Look into the description of Moonsilver in Arms of the Chosen: "shapeshifting, malleability, cyclic change, reflection, opposition, duality, purification, emotion, creativity, secrecy, insight, intuition, dreams, madness, and otherworldly realms." Now, specifically... Dreams, Madness, and Otherworldly Realms? There have been entire games that draw the entirety of their power from that. Among them, Changeling: The Dreaming and The Lost. 'Dreams' is not a boring thematic, neither is 'Madness'. If you need it in a more Internet-person form, Moonsilver has carte blanche to create, destroy, dissolve, and alter reality itself.

                        Also to bring M.C. Escher and Salvador Dali paintings to life.

                        It is a rather amazing magical material, as-is, the only one with a purview as broad as Orichalcum.

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                        • #27
                          To be fair to Bogmod, they wrote that before we had any examples of artefacts causing madness, otherworldly realms, etc. Now we do.
                          Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 12-01-2017, 05:21 PM.


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                          • #28
                            Whoops, missed the date.

                            Goddamn Abyssals and their necromancy!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                              I honestly can't think of a material that tells the story of this sword better than moonsilver, so there's that I guess.
                              Coming back to the question with a fresher and much less childishly bitter perspective, I now agree.

                              While I believe that green jade could probably do almost everything involved with Distaff, that's not a complaint about green jade. Further, moonsilver and green jade would lead to very different potentials for the sorts of swords that Dragonfly could be reborn as.

                              Also, I'd be interested to see artifact gloves that really double-down on the whole silk-producing-and-weaving thing that Distaff's general shape doesn't seem as appropriate for -- especially grappling tricks -- and that Distaff is too eager to leave behind as it hatches into a new Dragonfly.

                              But I do agree that orichalcum would seem to be very wrong as a material for this weapon, because the soft and fluid elasticity of silk makes sense with moonsilver (or green jade, and its plant/fiber connection) in a way that just doesn't with orichalcum.


                              Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
                              I think Arms of the Chosen has put this one to bed rather nicely.
                              Agreed.

                              The book has given me new ideas, and fresh ideas for old projects.

                              It gave me a way to satisfyingly finish my Monster Hunter Charge Blade artifact! And also got me to look at old things like the Daiklave of Conquest in a new light.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BogMod View Post
                                Maybe it is just me but the way moonsilver gets described in 3e is really rather boring. It can change its form. Sometimes a lot but usually just a little bit. Attacks with it are big and obvious or subtle and sneaky. It unites weapon and wielder in primal instinct of mystic insight which is vague enough to be almost unusable and really doesn't tell me much about how it is used in non-weapon ways. It seems lacking especially compared with the other magical materials. What else could it have? What else should it have? I could see there being associations with purity, uses in providing control and finesse to sorcery, emotions and emotional ties as well as truths. Maybe I am wrong and I just don't see what it already has or maybe you agree with me? What are your thoughts about how moonsilver in 3e is presented?

                                Think it seems that way because all the other Magical Materials seem more elemental and are associated with some form of force or energy, or has a special diverse effect (like starmetal expanding to be almost as diverse as jade now that they can have constellation associations). While Moonsilver is subtle.


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