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How much should Castes actually matter to the Lunar Exalted?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    They all clearly came BACK from the Wyld
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    ​What are you basing that on?
    I'm confused as to why you have less burden to prove that human demigods driven out of their Creation-spanning kingdom would want to remain in the Wyld than I have the burden to prove that they would want to return to their natural and rightful home.

    Likewise, it seems less necessary to prove that the Scarlet Dynasty can't keep the Lunar Exalted out of the Threshold than that it can. If the Dynasty had that kind of power and presence in the Threshold, why do the Lunar Exalted control most of the Caul? Why can Ma-Ha-Suchi, Leviathan, Rain Deathflyer, Silver Python, and Raksi all carve their own territories into the Threshold?

    Why is the default Lunar player experience going to be in Creation rather than the Wyld?


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    • #32
      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
      Full Moons:
      Caste Attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Stamina.
      Anima Banner:
      For 5 motes, the Lunar may add half her essence (rounded up) in dice to all movement pools and feats of strength (both the dice pool and the minimum strength for particular feats) for one scene. At bonfire/iconic level, this ability is activated automatically at no cost.
      Once per scene, when the Full Moon is at bonfire or iconic anima display, she may add half her Essence score (rounded up) to her base Initiative upon resetting to base after a successful decisive attack.
      For 10 motes, the Full Moon may reset all Strength, Dexterity and Stamina charms with outstanding reset condition. This ability can normally only be used once per day, and is reset when the moon rises in the evening. However, it can also be used in any scene during a night of the Full Moon.
      I like this.

      The only effect I might consider rejecting is the second. If Initiative is tied to any Attribute, it's the mental Attribute of Wits.


      Changing Moon:
      Caste Attributes: Charisma, Manipulation, Appearance
      Anima Banner:
      For 5 motes, the Changing Moon adds half her essence (rounded up) to her Guile and the difficulty to spot her tell for a scene. If her anima reaches the burning/iconic level, she gets this bonus automatically, as she is surrounded by an ever-shifting aura of light and shadows, concealing her identity. This also requires watchers her to make a Perception+Awareness roll, difficulty of her Essence, to identify her.
      For 2 motes, the Changing Moon may reflexively give herself any intimacy that was held by her current form (at the point she learnt the form), for the rest of the scene.
      For 10 motes, the Changing Moon may reset all Charisma, Manipulation or Appearance charms with outstanding reset conditions. This ability can only be used once per day, and is reset when the moon rises in the evening.
      I would prefer the Changing Moon to have some boost to her Threaten actions for intimidation, possibly as part of the first effect. Combining a bonus to Threaten with a bonus to the pokerface that prevents someone from calling the Lunar's intimidating bluff is handy. It's also more appropriate as a Changing Moon-only effect than an additional layer of Tell-concealment and identity disguise, which is useful for all Lunar Exalted.

      I don't like the second effect.


      No Moon:
      Caste Attributes: Perception, Intelligence, Wits
      Anima Banner:
      No Moons are master witches, gaining power in the darkest night. When the moon rises, they gain Essence sorcerous motes that last until dawn if not spent. On the nights of the New Moon, they gain Essence sorcerous motes every scene, that last until the end of the scene if not spent.
      As the Lunars who are aligned with the darkest of nights, No Moons can wrap themselves in shadow. For 3 motes, they can get (Essence or 3, whichever is higher) additional dice on a stealth attempt in shadow, darkness, or dim light.
      For 10 motes, the No Moon may reset all Perception, Intelligence or Wits charms with outstanding reset conditions. This ability can normally only be used once per day, and is reset when the moon rises in the evening. However, it can also be used in any scene during a night of the New Moon.
      The first runs into the sorcery-only problem. It's probably much better as a sorcery-related Charm, like the one cut from the final Corebook when the sample No Moon was left out.

      The second is external, as it relies on the elemental condition of the world around the Lunar rather than her own internal abilities. (Effects tied to the moon can be justified as the moon's presence having an internal sympathetic effect on the Lunar's Exalted soul.)


      ∙ For one mote, the No Moon can view the last sight of a dead creature - a single still image, preserved in the eyes of the deceased. Doing so requires him to consume a small portion of the deceased, such as a few drops of blood.

      ∙ For 5m, 1wp, the No Moon can reflexively revise his own genius. He may move a single dot from one Ability to any other; this change persists for the rest of the scene. A No Moon may maintain no more than one activation of this effect simultaneously, and he may not use this change as justification for learning Charms for which he otherwise does not meet the prerequisites (for instance, Martial Arts Charms).
      These are perhaps the only two of Irked's effects I like, but I think the first might be a Charm.

      The second one definitely strikes me as an appropriately niche effect that only really appeals to someone who chooses to play a Lunar as a No Moon.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
        There's no mechanical effect given for this effect. Also, this power has nothing to do with the Lunar himself being any faster or more graceful; it's not internal, it's external, and that clashes with the Lunar aesthetic.

        These aren't Dragon-Blooded or Sidereals who manipulate the substance or reality of the world around them. These are Lunars, who change themselves.
        I'll start by saying I never promised to deliver complete mechanical effects for them, since I couldn't think of anything and the intention was to workshop ideas into solid mechanical concepts; typically a way to to this is highballing and working your way down. And for the record as a friend eventually taught me, it's best to open criticism with something you liked.

        Secondly, I'll point out that by Dev comments, Lunars aren't without mind effecting and "illusory" powers, Just that they aren't glamours or weavings of insubstantial images. In this case, the notion here is that the Lunar in question is planting the thought in the minds of his foes of his omnipresence. A hunter who can strike from everywhere; a predator that terrifies his prey before eating it, as say, many great cats, and even persistence hunters like humans actually *do*.

        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
        I dislike this effect strongly.

        It's much more internal and personal than the last one, but doesn't really fit the idea of the Lunar being stronger or more personally powerful. It's much more warlike and destructive than I'd prefer the "primarily athletic but not necessarily Best Warrior-like" Full Moon Caste to be. It's also the sort of thing I'd prefer to be a general Lunar Charm, if it exists at all.

        Also, the restrictions on whom it works against may be too broad to really meant anything.
        I'll first note; you asked for broadly useful powers; and Lunars, unlike Zenith Castes don't have the remarkably broadly defined "Creatures of Darkness" label to fall back on, or I'd have used that.

        Part of the inspiration here had been klaives; the root source of daiklaives as a name, the powerful silver war-knives wielded by the Garou, and inhabited by mighty war-spirits. The Lunars *are* still waging a guerilla war and that *is* one of their themes now, since in part the idea was to draw more strongly in 3rd edition from actual barbarian aesthetics, as well as their source of inspiration in the Garou.

        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
        This seems hilariously broken no matter how this "doubling" is supposed to be specifically expressed. Also, it's not clear how it's suppose to be specifically expressed.

        Which is it? Doubling or adding Essence?

        Nope. I don't like the idea of being able to benefit from a form's biological abilities without having the biological anatomy of that creature.
        To clarify; you need a base strength to qualify for attempting feats of Strength/Speed/Stamina at all. The idea being that this increases the range by which you can qualify for them, then, allowing you to apply your essence as non-charm dice, separately from this qualifying effect, to rolls for athletics/acrobatics and feats of strength, while also not wanting to restrict it exclusively to out of combat uses, since that undercuts the role of Full Moons as warriors.

        As for the merits idea; well, Lunars aren't just shapeshifting proteans who take animalistic forms now.

        This'll sound silly, but I find a good way to understand Lunars now is kind of a cross between plains indian shamanism... and Bravestarr. "Eyes of the Hawk, Ears of the Wolf, Strength of the Bear, Speed of the Puma" as a method of invoking the powers of their shapes, in a sort of synchronicity without needing to physically take them all the time, and thus be subject to their physical limitations, since the idea is Lunars are still, fundamentally, humans taking on aspects of wolves and tigers and hawks.

        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
        I appreciate that you don't resort to the "illusionary disguise" power and at least try to emphasize the Changing Moon's social role among the Lunar Host, but I don't think you went far enough.

        EVERY Lunar is an impersonator, not just the Changing Moons. Their Caste isn't defined by being good impersonators; that's just a natural outgrowth of being very, very persuasive in general.

        Ideally, their Anima Effects should help them be more persuasive, and at least one of those effects should be persuading people that the Changing Moon is much scarier than he may actually be, either to help him avoid a fight or at least to keep his opponent from giving the fight her best effort.

        Likewise, "conceal my identity entirely when my anima is flaring" is another thing that should be a general Lunar Charm, because again, they are ALL impersonators. The Night Caste of the Solar Exalted have that as an anima effect because Larceny and Stealth are their hallmarks among the Solar Exalted. But all Lunar Exalted can use Heart's Blood to assume effectively perfect disguises even without Charms. The conceptual distribution is extremely different.

        That's also why, even though Dawn Caste Solars are the only Solars who can be Supernal Martial Artists, ALL Sidereal Exalted naturally Favor Martial Arts. The conceptual distribution is extremely different!
        Of course every Lunar is an impersonator, the Changing Moons however are historically the best at it however. We need to cleave to central themes here, otherwise the castes don't have enough of an identity to draw anima powers off of.

        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
        ...So, the Lunar becomes immaterial like a spirit? Why can't she walk through walls? (For that matter, can spirits walk through walls? It's not clear what the immaterial side of Creation looks like.)
        I wanted to avoid using the word dematerialize, but yes. And as for walking through walls, I don't think so. I do tend to think of it as being very like D&D classic's "Border Ethereal" though.

        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
        This is better by far than their original power, even if it runs into the same core problem of being sorcery-specific.
        Well sure, but it is noted that basically most lunars will be driven to turn to sorcery; I get the impression of a sort of synchronicity, in much the same way the Sidereals are. Two sides of the same coin and all.

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
        I think Arian probably has the right idea, to look at the themes first, but that's never been easy with Lunars! So maybe we need to not look so closely...

        Anyway:

        Actually, as much as my character enjoyed introducing himself as "Wu Lin Xiao the Ogre, commonly known as Furgol", and saying "Of course I can change shape, I'm an Ogre," the Frenzied/Tricksters/Ogres is Immaculate nomenclature as well.
        I was implying both were, given the negative implications of being called a thief-in-the-night.

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
        If that's an essential theme of Lunars, then I think it's better represented through charms than anima powers, as it's not specific to one Lunar caste.

        Well, by Immaculates. They don't generally call themselves that. It's deliberately dismissive.
        I suspect in practice physical charms will have more rage-based themes than others (though not entirely: there may well be a good few social ones and I can see it in Wits for their social defence charms), but, if it's a pan-Lunar theme, I don't think the Full Moons need anima powers that express it more than others.
        Not saying they can't, either. Just that they don't need to.
        While I think you're right perhaps about it being an overall dismissal of the Lunars by the Immaculates, you yourself admitted to "owning" it, Wun Lin Xiao the Ogre.

        Perhaps now its a case of "Hey! That's our word!"? That said, I'm saying that all the castes *would* exemplify rage, but the Devs have also said Rage is a positive thing for the lunar character. A fuel, if you will. Though I'd argue that there *should* be something to the Immaculate insult of "The Frenzied" just as there are truths to "Deceivers" and "The Unclean"

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
        Saying this, I think these are reasonable summations of the castes that you've written here:

        There's a couple of things here that I didn't really like, but thinking about it I've changed my mind.
        Manipulation charms are about trickery. Charisma charms are generally not (though they could be, in a different way). So I was resistant to Changing-Moon-as-tricksters. But then, if not, what are they? Of course Changing Moons are Tricksters! And everyone I know who's played them has been at least a little tricksy (whereas Zeniths generally are not... even Eclipses tend to be less tricksy than Changing Moons), even if some have embraced that far more than others.
        So I'm happy for them to have trickster-based caste powers.
        I've long liked the Dev comparison; Manipulation is how you get someone onto your side and make them think it was their idea. It's how you lie, but also how you get someone to decide to drop out of the army to spare their life. It's how the Socratic Method teaches.

        Charisma is how you walk into a room and just project sheer force of personality, whether it be likability, fear, or anything really.

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

        The No Moons... yes, I think that's exactly what they are. I like "they plumb secrets and mystical knowledge from intentionally dark and hidden places." I think it's a)appropriate for Lunars, and b)a bit different from Twilights.
        I was resistant to No Moons being too occult, because what if you want to play the polymath, the general genius (you are, after all, the caste that's about Mental Attributes, not just sorcery). But... that's kind of what Twilights do. And it does fit with the Moon-symbolism.
        I quite agree. Obviously.

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
        ∙ The Changing Moon embodies Luna’s nature as the Fickle Lady. For 10m, 1wp, he can immediately
        reduce one of his Intimacies by one level, unless that Intimacy has been created or strengthened this
        scene. He may do so even in response to influence that would benefit from the chosen Intimacy.
        Everything else I address above, but it must be said; Irked, I quite like this one.


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        • #34
          Originally posted by Arian Dynas View Post
          As for the merits idea; well, Lunars aren't just shapeshifting proteans who take animalistic forms now.

          This'll sound silly, but I find a good way to understand Lunars now is kind of a cross between plains indian shamanism... and Bravestarr. "Eyes of the Hawk, Ears of the Wolf, Strength of the Bear, Speed of the Puma" as a method of invoking the powers of their shapes, in a sort of synchronicity without needing to physically take them all the time, and thus be subject to their physical limitations, since the idea is Lunars are still, fundamentally, humans taking on aspects of wolves and tigers and hawks.
          I don't think that's silly; it's what I expected out their Charms, too. I just expect that to provide raw bonuses to form-agnostic actions like Rushes, without borrowing form-specific merits.

          I'm not gonna answer the rest tonight; I'm tired.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
            I don't think that's silly; it's what I expected out their Charms, too. I just expect that to provide raw bonuses to form-agnostic actions like Rushes, without borrowing form-specific merits.

            I'm not gonna answer the rest tonight; I'm tired.
            It's the Bravestarr comparison I'm calling silly. Because I sure feel silly saying it.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by Arian Dynas View Post
              It's the Bravestarr comparison I'm calling silly. Because I sure feel silly saying it.
              Regardless, here's an answer:

              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
              Do you see Lunar Charms tending more towards Orochimaru "my arms are now snakes" or Bravestarr "Speed of the Puma!" shenanigans?

              Or is it a little of Column A, little of Column B?
              Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
              Lunar Charm trees begin as superhuman manifestations of their Attributes. As they progress from the most basic effects and diverge, they move towards the archetypal Warrior/Trickster/Shaman themes of the Lunar Castes, and their overarching themes of Predation and Symbiosis.

              That's mostly a long-winded way of saying "I don't think either of those is completely right as a signpost for Lunar Charms."


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              • #37
                Developer answers have crossed the point from "informative" to "confusing".

                Apparently, Lunar Castes are going to matter a hell of a lot?

                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                Lunar Charm trees begin as superhuman manifestations of their Attributes. As they progress from the most basic effects and diverge, they move towards the archetypal Warrior/Trickster/Shaman themes of the Lunar Castes, and their overarching themes of Predation and Symbiosis.
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                How does this impact Casteless Lunars? Can they learn any Charms at all?

                Would a Lunar lose all of his Charms if he lost his Tattoos, and have to learn an all-new Charmset if he created a new Caste for himself?
                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                As a general rule, assume design choices that sound horribly unfun aren't going to happen.
                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                I want Lunars to get finally get the treatment they've deserved and not gotten, and I'm excited to deliver on it.

                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                The archetypal roles of the Lunar Castes guide the progression of their Attribute-based Charms, along with the overarching Lunar themes of predation and symbiosis.
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Would a different Shard like Exalted Modern or Gunstar need whole new Lunar Charmsets?
                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                I don't see why warriors, tricksters, and shamans can't exist in the modern day, or in god-machine sci fi.
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Can you see why warriors, tricksters, and shamans were so ill-suited to the First Age that the Lunar Exalted apparently created Castes entirely different from the ones they have now? That puzzles me.

                Also, the lack of any suggestion that the Second Age Castes are a throwback to the Castes they had for the Primordial War.

                It all suggests to me that the Second Age Castes are highly specialized for the Second Age, where the Lunar Exalted are without infrastructure, and fighting against all other Exalted rather than alongside all other Exalted. A situation entirely unlike Modern Creation or the Gunstar.
                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                The Lunars reshaped their Exaltation to better thrive among the Age of Sorrows. They are unique among the Exalted in that they have evolved across the ages along a self-determined course.

                Could they evolve further to fit into a shard? Perhaps. Would that entail a total Charmset rewrite? No. For many reasons, but mainly, that's too much work!

                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Mental Charms are Shaman Charms?
                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                Not all of them. Rather, the more a mental Charm diverges from being a pure application of its underlying Attribute, the more it's going to point towards either the role of the shaman or the themes of predation or symbiosis.
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Does the role of the shaman allow Lunars to achieve Ability-like effects beyond "super-Attribute" and "like a beast"? Things that actually look a little like Medicine and Craft related Charms and which aren't totally eclipsed by Dragon-Blooded Charms?
                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                Definitely beyond that, going into mysticism and witchcraft. I find the idea that Lunar prowess might be eclipsed by the Dragon-Blooded laughable.

                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Do you see "Warrior, Trickster, Shaman" inspirations locked to Physical, Social, and Mental Attributes respectively, or is there overlap?

                I can see Trickster tricks in Physical and Mental Attributes, Shaman tricks in Social Attributes, and Warrior tricks in anything.
                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                It's complicated. Some of the as-of-yet unrevealed mechanical plans I have for Lunars make it hard to give this a straight answer.
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Would [Mental Charms being Shaman Charms] get in the way of having Intelligence Charms for building traps and planning ambushes, since those are Trickster activities?
                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                It's an issue that I believe I have a solution for.

                I've flown into speculation a number of times before on less information. But this time I'm just straight up baffled.

                I have no idea why Castes should be so important to the Lunar Exalted. I'm not sure what artificial roles have to do with face-stealing skin-walker werewolves. But apparently Lunar Exalted might get better healing and crafting Charms than the Dragon-Blooded this time, and it's BECAUSE of their Castes.

                I'm not mad or disappointed or even scared this time. I'm just confused.
                Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 10-06-2017, 11:31 PM.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                  I've flown into speculation a number of times before on less information
                  Indeed.

                  Castes matter out of game as well; they give players an easy archetype to map to. Warrior/Trickster/Shaman are pretty easy to grasp and fit the intended roles of the Lunars, and even if you can do those with Solars, you can do pretty much any concept as a Solar. It's extremely useful for them to be there; thus they must matter and be useful in-game as well.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                    Developer answers have crossed the point from "informative" to "confusing".

                    Apparently, Lunar Castes are going to matter a hell of a lot?


                    I've flown into speculation a number of times before on less information. But this time I'm just straight up baffled.

                    I have no idea why Castes should be so important to the Lunar Exalted. I'm not sure what artificial roles have to do with face-stealing skin-walker werewolves. But apparently Lunar Exalted might get better healing and crafting Charms than the Dragon-Blooded this time, and it's BECAUSE of their Castes.

                    I'm not mad or disappointed or even scared this time. I'm just confused.
                    My thinking of it, looking at it as an In-Game thing.

                    The Lunar Exalted suffered a shock to their Castes. A breaking. And they were exiled into a chaotic realm where there is power in stories. So, Lunars remade themselves, forging their Castes anew... And to take advantage of their environment and focused to have greater focus and strength. Story Archetypes, the simplest and most core concepts found in stories of what a character is meant to be and do. The Warrior who's strength and skill lets him plow through barriers. The Shaman who's insight and wisdom finds solutions to the problems that face them. The Trickster who deceives and plays those hindering them into giving way.

                    How each Lunar expresses themselves in these roles is very variable. You can play a Shaman like Odin or like Anansi. You can play a Warrior like Conan or like Sun Wukong. It's straight forward and it's powerful for the new world they find themselves in.

                    They are such masterful shapeshifters that they even changed how their power expresses itself to be what they need in this new era.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Paradim View Post

                      My thinking of it, looking at it as an In-Game thing.

                      The Lunar Exalted suffered a shock to their Castes. A breaking. And they were exiled into a chaotic realm where there is power in stories. So, Lunars remade themselves, forging their Castes anew... And to take advantage of their environment and focused to have greater focus and strength. Story Archetypes, the simplest and most core concepts found in stories of what a character is meant to be and do. The Warrior who's strength and skill lets him plow through barriers. The Shaman who's insight and wisdom finds solutions to the problems that face them. The Trickster who deceives and plays those hindering them into giving way.
                      There's a mistaken assumption in there; the Lunar Castes weren't broken by the Wyld. The Lunars deliberately chose to remake them in the wake of the Usurpation.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        Developer answers have crossed the point from "informative" to "confusing".

                        Apparently, Lunar Castes are going to matter a hell of a lot?

                        I've flown into speculation a number of times before on less information. But this time I'm just straight up baffled.

                        I have no idea why Castes should be so important to the Lunar Exalted. I'm not sure what artificial roles have to do with face-stealing skin-walker werewolves. But apparently Lunar Exalted might get better healing and crafting Charms than the Dragon-Blooded this time, and it's BECAUSE of their Castes.

                        I'm not mad or disappointed or even scared this time. I'm just confused.
                        I might have misunderstood Vance of course, but it doesn't seem that confusing to me.


                        The themes of physical attribute charms are super-strength/dex/stamina, predation, symbiosis, and being a warrior.

                        The themes of social attribute charms are super-charisma/manipulation/appearance, predation, symbiosis, and being a trickster.

                        The themes of mental attribute charms are super-perception/intelligence/wits, predation, symbiosis, and being a shaman.

                        And shapeshifting underlies the whole thing.

                        Generally speaking, the super-attribute charms (like, say, being able to lift really heavy objects, tracking by scent, lying really well, etc) are nearer the bottom of the trees, while the charms whose themes are warrior/trickster/shaman, predation, or symbiosis, are higher on the trees.
                        (Obviously some charms might be a mix of these themes, but if, say, an Intelligence charm doesn't really have much to do with super-intelligence, you can guarentee it's going to be pretty clearly shamanic, predatory, or connected to symbiosis.)


                        Incidentally, in my opinion, it's probably easier for the writers to think of shaman-themed charms than it is trickster-themed charms, which are easier for the writers to come up with than warrior-themed charms, because "warrior" is pretty vague.

                        But that's actually fine! Why? Because in previous editions filling the super-strength, super-dex, and super-stamina charms was pretty damn easy for writers. Throw in some shapeshifting, symbiosis and predation and you're basically done. And when you've given your Lunar a bunch of increase-damage-due-to-super-strength charms, and increase-soak-due-to-super-stamina charms, you've got a warrior's charm-set.
                        Whereas writers found coming up with Appearance, Intelligence and Wits charms extremely difficult (as you can see by the size of the charmtrees in the 2nd ed Core: Wits has 17 charms, several of which are reprinted Dex charms, Intelligence has 15 plus the two sorcery charms, and Appearance has 8. By comparison, Stamina has 28, Dex has 29, and Strength has 26.)

                        So the social charms need something that can give them a bit more of a thematic base, and the mental charms need something that can give them a lot more of a thematic base. And Shamanism can, I think, as a concept, produce a lot more charm themes.


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Neall View Post
                          Castes matter out of game as well; they give players an easy archetype to map to.

                          It's extremely useful for them to be there; thus they must matter and be useful in-game as well.
                          It's a heck of a lot better than them being nearly pointless, as we were speculating earlier in this thread.


                          Warrior/Trickster/Shaman are pretty easy to grasp and fit the intended roles of the Lunars, and even if you can do those with Solars, you can do pretty much any concept as a Solar.
                          What worried me was that no other splat tries to do the same thing as Solars. A Chosen of Battles is similar to, but different from, a Dawn Caste. Are they called warriors or administrators of war?

                          Would Dexterity be allowed to give Full Moons some stealthiness, or would stealthiness be restricted to the Social Attributes because the Changing Moons are the tricksters? How would Full Moons be able to use physical Attributes to match the mental and social aspects that Dawn Castes can access through Awareness and War?

                          Full Moons have been "warriors" in the past editions.


                          What puzzles me now is where this Caste-based magic is coming from. From the Tattoos themselves?

                          Are these Caste Charms arising from the Tattoos rather than the Lunar's bodies?
                          Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 10-07-2017, 09:41 AM.


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                          • #43
                            It might be that a given charm does slightly different things based upon the Lunar's caste. Think Martial arts keywords. There could be a base effect and then one or more bonus effects for lunars of a given caste. Casteless might flip between which they count as based on the lunar cycle or something.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                              Would Dexterity be allowed to give Full Moons some stealthiness, or would stealthiness be restricted to the Social Attributes because the Changing Moons are the tricksters?
                              I'd have thought that would come under a super-human expression of Dexterity.

                              Although of course, most Lunar sneakiness comes from turning into flies or spiders rather than stealth-charm-effects.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                I'd have thought that would come under a super-human expression of Dexterity.
                                I'd think it'd depend on the kind of stealth. Hiding by blending into a crowd sounds a lot more appropriate for a Social Attribute than it does for Dexterity, for instance, and active camouflage doesn't really sound like either.

                                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                Although of course, most Lunar sneakiness comes from turning into flies or spiders rather than stealth-charm-effects.
                                I'd argue that 1e and 2e's approach to "Lunar sneakiness" shouldn't be given too much weight when considering their paradigm in Ex3.

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