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how was the usurpation successful?

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  • mark
    replied
    Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
    Is there anyone claiming that?

    I can't really find one post claiming anything else. The closest post I can find is the one by Eldagusto, and as I understand it, it is saying a handful Solars (a very small minority) could have been tricked into being a part of the buildup.

    My impression is that most members posting in this forum seems to assume something like this:
    * A large portion, probably more than half, of the Solars were quickly dispatched at the Calibration celebration, by Dragonbloods attacking them.
    * Some of the remaining Solars assumed it was a coup by some other Solar, going to war against each other.
    * Some of the remaining Solars assumed it was a Dragonblood uprising, and went after them instead.
    * Some Dragonbloods believing their Solar lord are about to turn on them, just as other Solars have gone after theirs, and decides to strike first.
    * Most of the Solars able to initially stay outside of the conflict are soon pulled into it by others.

    So the majority of the manipulation of the Solars probably was to make them discard any hint they might find about the preparations, and to make them lash out in the wrong direction if they survive the initial strike.

    Or, has I completely misunderstood the entire discussion?

    calibration is the big issue here. the normal rules for orchestrating a revolution do not apply .after all it's a single place. or let me put it that way how many dragon blooded would be needed to attack the massed solars during calibration and have a realistic chance of winning? after all you can't really bring a dragon blooded army from all around creation to one very specific place housing a few hundred individuals and expect that the soldiers will follow you just because you say so. after all a dragon blooded is not just a conscripted peasant who listens to the guy with the shiniest armour.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lundgren
    replied
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    Yeah, I agree with Isator. On the small scale there's nothing wrong with individual Solar Exalted having been manipulated or tricked by the Sidereal Exalted into taking part in their own downfall (the Sidereal have long been held up as unparalleled manipulators and puppet masters). But as a whole, I don't think it's good if all (or even a large majority) of the Solars were responsible for their own downfall. I don't think that sets a good stage for the Solars, Dragon Blooded or even the Sidereal Exalted.
    Is there anyone claiming that?

    I can't really find one post claiming anything else. The closest post I can find is the one by Eldagusto, and as I understand it, it is saying a handful Solars (a very small minority) could have been tricked into being a part of the buildup.

    My impression is that most members posting in this forum seems to assume something like this:
    * A large portion, probably more than half, of the Solars were quickly dispatched at the Calibration celebration, by Dragonbloods attacking them.
    * Some of the remaining Solars assumed it was a coup by some other Solar, going to war against each other.
    * Some of the remaining Solars assumed it was a Dragonblood uprising, and went after them instead.
    * Some Dragonbloods believing their Solar lord are about to turn on them, just as other Solars have gone after theirs, and decides to strike first.
    * Most of the Solars able to initially stay outside of the conflict are soon pulled into it by others.

    So the majority of the manipulation of the Solars probably was to make them discard any hint they might find about the preparations, and to make them lash out in the wrong direction if they survive the initial strike.

    Or, has I completely misunderstood the entire discussion?

    Leave a comment:


  • AnubisXy
    replied
    Yeah, I agree with Isator. On the small scale there's nothing wrong with individual Solar Exalted having been manipulated or tricked by the Sidereal Exalted into taking part in their own downfall (the Sidereal have long been held up as unparalleled manipulators and puppet masters). But as a whole, I don't think it's good if all (or even a large majority) of the Solars were responsible for their own downfall. I don't think that sets a good stage for the Solars, Dragon Blooded or even the Sidereal Exalted.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lundgren
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Or rather, to enter with an attitude of "it needed the Solars to help in order to work" does not imply an attitude towards Terrestrial and Sidereal Exalted that will translate well for their use in play.
    To me, it is how the Sids roll, like Uriel in the TV-show Lucifer. I'm also not a fan of "the Solars will go mad, it is just a matter of time" meme. So in my mind, it isn't "it needed the Solars to help in order to work" as much as "after an initial devastating strike, make the Solars take out each other; it will save lives of those whom will take over."

    But YMMV, of course

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    I get why some people go for the thing of Solars assuming they're in control of the Usurpation or fighting each other after it begins, but I think it sets the wrong tone.

    ​It's one thing for Solars to have underestimated a conspiracy against them, but making them active participants in their own downfall is something that I think kind of diminishes the accomplishment of the usurpers. Or rather, to enter with an attitude of "it needed the Solars to help in order to work" does not imply an attitude towards Terrestrial and Sidereal Exalted that will translate well for their use in play.

    ​The idea of them being manipulated into fighting each other is an improvement, but only slight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lundgren
    replied
    The Sids are schemers, chess-players, and they have the ability to stack the odds in their favor.

    For example:

    * Fuel the behavior of the Solars, to make them appear mad and out of control.

    * Increase the paranoia and mistrust between the Solars.

    * Manipulate events to create mistrust and resentment among the Dragonbloods against the Solars.

    * Manipulate events to make the Solars go after each other after the Calibration Massacre.

    * Get the right individual in position to manage security for the Calibration Banquet.

    * Make sure the key guards have an upbringing so they won't hesitate to slaughter Solars at the Banquet.

    * Make sure the Solars will ingest something, making them dizzy and unfocused, giving the Dragonbloods the upper hand when they strike at the Banquet.

    When it was just a decade remaining, it might be unavoidable; where failure would just mean a long and bloody war instead of a swift strike. A Solar detecting something would most likely assume it is a plot from another Solar; which is something the Sids can spin even more on.

    Leave a comment:


  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    ​That seems like it would make it a lot harder to coordinate with the Dragon Blooded.

    Under this theory, Arcane Fate was the fallout from the effect afterwards, not the effect itself. The effect was specifically obscuring the conspiracy from the Solars.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    Since we know Arcane Fate exists in 3E, the Mask may still be broken. I'd move the breaking to before the Usurpation specifically to obscure evidence of it from the Solars with Fate warping far beyond what's normally possible through Sidereal Charmsets.
    ​That seems like it would make it a lot harder to coordinate with the Dragon Blooded.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leetsepeak
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    Since we know Arcane Fate exists in 3E, the Mask may still be broken. I'd move the breaking to before the Usurpation specifically to obscure evidence of it from the Solars with Fate warping far beyond what's normally possible through Sidereal Charmsets.

    As doing so irreparably broke 4% of Fate, that doesn't seem too unbalanced.
    Comments by authors have suggested that the breaking of the Mask still happened, but that it was a choice rather than a necessity. The Sidereals needed to hide their actions from no one, but erased themselves from the world to better watch over it.

    Leave a comment:


  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Since we know Arcane Fate exists in 3E, the Mask may still be broken. I'd move the breaking to before the Usurpation specifically to obscure evidence of it from the Solars with Fate warping far beyond what's normally possible through Sidereal Charmsets.

    As doing so irreparably broke 4% of Fate, that doesn't seem too unbalanced.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leetsepeak
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    I think that whatever way that one envisions it, reading into the massacre of the Calibration Feast as a definitive statement on Exalted fight ratios is not really the best way to go.

    ​It would be like looking at the murder of Julius Caesar and thinking "oh wow, he was so badass that it took about thirty men to bring him down".
    Caesar's player didn't know what he was doing, it was just a battlegroup of senators!

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    ok, back then there were like a million dragon-blooded.. it's hard to imagine how most of them became part of a conspiracy without even a few betraying the rest to the solars
    In my Headcanon certain Solars were convinced they were the puppet masters of the usurpation and thus helped it it get past their fellows.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    It's a strange thing that occurs in threads, the assumption that, out of the myriad ways something could have gone down, it had to have happened in the way that makes the least sense.

    It's rather circular, it seems.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 09-04-2017, 05:58 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    I think that whatever way that one envisions it, reading into the massacre of the Calibration Feast as a definitive statement on Exalted fight ratios is not really the best way to go.

    ​It would be like looking at the murder of Julius Caesar and thinking "oh wow, he was so badass that it took about thirty men to bring him down".

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghosthead
    replied
    I assume that back when the authors visualised it, they either visualised something like:

    - A few thousand Dragonblooded against the few hundred Solars in an ambush, with only the elite Dragonblooded most in on the detail.

    - Something more like a stand up war where Dragonblooded slowly bled off and declared independence involving battles of millions, rather than the Calibration Feast ambush gank.

    Something like a million Dragonblooded being in on a Calibration Feast gank doesn't make sense. But such is the consequence of deciding that it takes that level of numbers of Dragonblooded and that level of surprise and ambush together. (Obvs. I would on the whole prefer to say it doesn't!).

    Leave a comment:

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