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Who's footing the bill for the dragonblooded?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Aretii View Post

    Yeah; I'd certainly say that "Diminishment happens at the creation of the Exalted, and the 'cost' of the creation of the Terrestrial Exalted takes into account the Exaltation's capacity to multiply."
    Yeah, I completely agree with this.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post
      So with the law of diminishment the various gods of creation are much reduced or even destroyed when they use the exigence. Since the yozi are terrified of it and won't exalt their own champions (as far as we know in 3E but this could change I suppose), we can presume that beings of that caliber are not immune to this effect. Presumably even the sun, moon and stars are actually somewhat diminished from what they once were. So following this line of reasoning... who's power is being used to empower the dragonblood? Were the elemental dragons diminished once and never need to buy in to the cycle again? or are they being constantly drained to fuel the DB empire's expansion. Or is it coming from somewhere else?

      Keep in mind that even if the incarnae are immune to diminishment, the yozi aren't and as the devas of a titan, the elemental dragons are not immune to this effect either.
      Nobody is immune to the Law of Diminishment that is the whole point. Dragons aren't confirmed as Devas, they may be just Children of a Primordial. And I would say they payed the cost and went into Torpor sleeping in the poles. And they likely don't pay a cost for each Dragonblooded born, they only paid the cost for the first Generation.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Elfive View Post
        I think it's less that they don't exist separately and more that, much like an exalt can't survive without an exaltation, a terrestrial exaltation can't survive without an exalt.
        More than that, if the potential for a terrestrial exaltation exists within someone then odds are it's always been there, that's why breeding works. So there's no separate phase like there is in the cycle of celestial exaltations.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
          I think it's less that they don't exist separately and more that, much like an exalt can't survive without an exaltation, a terrestrial exaltation can't survive without an exalt.
          I thought this edition was moving away from Exaltations as things and more to exaltations as events or miracles. I recall a discussion about the term "host" implying that a Celestial is somehow not an exalted, but just the meat sock the real Exalt(ation) is inside at that time.
          Last edited by Exthalion; 09-07-2017, 03:30 PM.

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          • #20
            The only issue (or at least potential issue, this might not be something everyone considers a negative) about Exaltation as an event rather than the physical soul-portion is that it undoes the justification for First Age incarnation memories, which I at least consider spectactularly awesome and thematic.

            Of course, it's not too hard to swing if you assume those memories are locked deep in the upper soul (rather than within the Exaltation itself), thus the human himself can awaken those memories if he was already reincarnated from an old Solar before even being Exalted, but I'm partial to the version of the story that allows a Deathlord to, in some sense, encounter his own reincarnation, among other cool corner cases.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
              Nobody is immune to the Law of Diminishment that is the whole point. Dragons aren't confirmed as Devas, they may be just Children of a Primordial. And I would say they payed the cost and went into Torpor sleeping in the poles. And they likely don't pay a cost for each Dragonblooded born, they only paid the cost for the first Generation.
              I didn't think they are. I said even if they were it wouldn't matter because the DB are not made by the incarnae and the creation of such would be subject to the LoD. As for whether or not the dragons are devas of Gaia it doesn't make that much of a difference, does it? I may have understood their relationship to Gaia incorrectly and I may very well be confused about the dragons, they are still subject to the law. However, since Vance has weighed in on this matter my conclusion is that the Dragons spent much of themselves in the creation of the first dragonblooded and the dragonblooded exaltation carries the trait of propagation internally. So you'd be right, the DB cost was paid in full up front. This is true of the celestial exalts as well though their populations are relatively unchanging.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Exthalion View Post

                I thought this edition was moving away from Exaltations as things and more to exaltations as events or miracles.
                I think that's some combination of misremembering, misreading and a bit of wishful thinking. There's a middle ground that I think is still present in the book that seems to often be excluded.

                ​I think that the Essence does not need to be a thing in terms of a device with highly sophisticated systems of motic filtration, amplification and conversion, specifically lodged in the po soul (which is itself a discrete and recognisable thing that exists inside of you), while still having room to be a divine flame that resides in the cabinet of a celestial functionary until the will of God bestows it upon you, becoming an indelible and inseparable aspect until it departs from you with your final breath.

                Originally posted by Exthalion
                I recall a discussion about the term "host" implying that a Celestial is somehow not an exalted, but just the meat soak the real Exalt(ation) is inside at that time.
                ​Well, a host can still be a human being (certainly you are host to your gut flora), but I take issue with it mostly because of the image of the relationship between Chosen and Essence being one of separate aspects in which one merely resides within the other.

                Originally posted by Remedy
                The only issue (or at least potential issue, this might not be something everyone considers a negative) about Exaltation as an event rather than the physical soul-portion is that it undoes the justification for First Age incarnation memories, which I at least consider spectactularly awesome and thematic.

                Of course, it's not too hard to swing if you assume those memories are locked deep in the upper soul (rather than within the Exaltation itself), thus the human himself can awaken those memories if he was already reincarnated from an old Solar before even being Exalted, but I'm partial to the version of the story that allows a Deathlord to, in some sense, encounter his own reincarnation, among other cool corner cases.
                Or the information could just arise within somebody.

                ​Even with the Second Breath as something that exists discretely until it dissolves within the greater mass of your Essence, I wouldn't suppose that, say, the visions bestowed by the Unconquered Sun to Zeniths (and others) are something imprinted upon it; that information is conveyed by other means.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Exthalion View Post

                  I thought this edition was moving away from Exaltations as things and more to exaltations as events or miracles. I recall a discussion about the term "host" implying that a Celestial is somehow not an exalted, but just the meat soak the real Exalt(ation) is inside at that time.
                  That's basically what the immaculate order teaches, so I doubt it's actually true in-universe.

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                  • #24
                    Maybe it's the seasons.
                    Before the Exalted were, maybe there were no seasons. All the poles were raging harder than they do at their peak now, all the time, simultaneously.
                    Then the Exalted were, and they were diminished. They weren't as much as they were before so they put up a cycle to exert themselves and to rest.

                    Or something like that, maybe?

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                    • #25
                      I was thinking maybe that the Elemental Dragons kept growing in power - and keeping them in check was done by the Devas and Incarnae as a training exercise/practice process. The new dragon bloods each sap a little bit of power from the Dragons, keeping them in check now the Incarnae do other stuff and the Devas are mostly demons. Note I came up with this idea like 5 minutes ago, so I haven't thought it through yet.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by imadaman View Post
                        Maybe it's the seasons.
                        Before the Exalted were, maybe there were no seasons. All the poles were raging harder than they do at their peak now, all the time, simultaneously.
                        Then the Exalted were, and they were diminished. They weren't as much as they were before so they put up a cycle to exert themselves and to rest.

                        Or something like that, maybe?
                        Certainly, the fluff says that in ancient times there were many more earthquakes, typhoons, tsunamis and volcanoes, as the Dragons raged across Creation.
                        So that's possible.


                        Honestly, I don't think "how does the Law of Diminishment matter to the Dragons" is that important: maybe they're less powerful than before, but since they don't really do much, I don't think it matters greatly.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Remedy View Post
                          The only issue (or at least potential issue, this might not be something everyone considers a negative) about Exaltation as an event rather than the physical soul-portion is that it undoes the justification for First Age incarnation memories, which I at least consider spectactularly awesome and thematic.

                          Of course, it's not too hard to swing if you assume those memories are locked deep in the upper soul (rather than within the Exaltation itself), thus the human himself can awaken those memories if he was already reincarnated from an old Solar before even being Exalted, but I'm partial to the version of the story that allows a Deathlord to, in some sense, encounter his own reincarnation, among other cool corner cases.

                          I don't think the ideas of Exaltation as Miraculous Event instead of Discreet Artifact and Inherited Mantle are mutually exclusive.

                          The potential for this Exaltation exists in the ether as a concept, not necessarily a tangible object, and this potential has a history that you now share in.

                          Although past lives weren't directly mentioned in Ex3Core, there is the whole sidebar in Miracles, so, confirmed.


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                          • #28
                            Is it necessarily the case that the Exigence is the same force/power/whatever as Celestial or Terrestrial Exaltation? I haven't seen that made explicit. Is there a statement, or are you just assuming that there's a bill to be paid?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
                              Is it necessarily the case that the Exigence is the same force/power/whatever as Celestial or Terrestrial Exaltation? I haven't seen that made explicit. Is there a statement, or are you just assuming that there's a bill to be paid?
                              The Infernals Kickstarter preview introduced the concept of the Law of Diminishment: those who give of themselves to Exalt others are lessened thereby, regardless of the type of Exaltation. Much of that preview is no longer valid, but the current devs are still using the Law of Diminishment.

                              Since the Exigence involves a god giving of themselves to create a champion, the Law kicks in.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
                                The Dragon-Blooded are the Chosen of the Five Elemental Dragons. Their creation was a singular event. Construe accordingly.
                                My mind is recalled to the fact that there's a minimum safe period between dragonblooded reproduction in 2e, but 'their creation was a singular event' casts some doubt on that being the relevant factor here. Still, the idea that the parents of a dragon blood are the ones paying the cost - in their well being and strength - for the new exaltation to be possible, under the design that their own strength can be recovered...makes sense, I suppose.

                                Though there just being some massive capacity for dragonblooded exaltation, and creation has never come close to using it all, seems similarly implied...

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