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  • #31
    I think of Dragon-Blooded exaltation as more literally a flame. A flame doesn't have to be handed off; I can touch my candle to yours and now we both have light. But you need a candle to begin with -- the potential for greatness and heroic spirit required to Exalt, and the line of unbroken inheritance from the firstborn of the Dragon-Blooded.

    This is why they are so much weaker as individuals; a Solar inherits an entire blazing lantern, while a Dragon-Blooded receives light from a candle. But they can then light that candle for their children to come, if those children make themselves worthy; a Solar can only pass the lantern on, cannot 'open it' to spread the flame around.

    To put it in another form: The Dragons gave of themselves, and the interest of that 'investment' is what is being used to empower the Dragon-Blooded. They may not have the raw 'capital' of a Solar, the sheer overwhelming absurd power, but they are still mighty demigods invested with divine power. A torch may not be as strong as a bonfire, but it is more flame than someone with nothing at all possesses.

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    • #32
      As for memories and Exaltations being events, not things, I think there's a bit as noted where they can be both too. I think there's a bit with "legacy" with Exaltations. There's not some object about that is the Exaltation that first was Raiya Aru that got handed over to Onca Kesha the Jaguar Queen, which now rests in Cathay Red Dragon of Lao. But there is something about each of their individual Exaltations that's tied in a way that probably sint' goign to be descirbed, which kind of has this feel of being part of a legacy or a line of succession to me. I think thinking of Exaltations as less like some magical widget and more some kind of broader context-based thing is where I'd go with it. It's as much an inheritence of some First Age thing as it can be just your empowerment now.

      In 3e the big thing I think is just not htink of it as pinned down. What the First Age memories or legacy for Celestial Exalted even is kind of different. The only exception probably might be Sidereals, who again, still feels more lik some sort of "inheriting a spot in part of your twenty" thingy than it does like an object being passed on. You're a successor, not the new holder of a bauble.


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      • #33
        Just as a stray thought, the world BEFORE the exalted was a far more primal one. Great volcanoes, earthquakes giant trees and so on. It still has some of that but not nearly as much. Could it be the source of the power that empowers the DB is the very excessive elemental nature that makes the place more viable for humans? I kinda like the idea, because it implies that if you destroy/unmake the dragonblooded it will have a significant environmental impact as that energy goes flowing back to the world in large volume.


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        • #34
          Originally posted by Odd_Canuck View Post
          Just as a stray thought, the world BEFORE the exalted was a far more primal one. Great volcanoes, earthquakes giant trees and so on. It still has some of that but not nearly as much. Could it be the source of the power that empowers the DB is the very excessive elemental nature that makes the place more viable for humans? I kinda like the idea, because it implies that if you destroy/unmake the dragonblooded it will have a significant environmental impact as that energy goes flowing back to the world in large volume.
          It's been brought up that these might be linked (see Wise Old Guru's post in this thread), but I dislike the "conservation law" aspect of "kill the DBs, re-empower the world." I think it is better for the fantasy of Exaltation for it to be "if you wipe out the DBs, what you have accomplished is simply a world without DBs, which is the lesser for it."


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          • #35
            Originally posted by Aretii View Post

            It's been brought up that these might be linked (see Wise Old Guru's post in this thread), but I dislike the "conservation law" aspect of "kill the DBs, re-empower the world." I think it is better for the fantasy of Exaltation for it to be "if you wipe out the DBs, what you have accomplished is simply a world without DBs, which is the lesser for it."
            I agree. It's also kind of more consistent with other stuff too. Killing an Exigent doesn't make the god come back. Locking the Solars away didn't make the Sun suddenly more involved. And as you note, wiping out hte DBs is in itself a feat worth noting, but which itself only means the Host is smaller and the Dragons still lessened.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by Aretii View Post

              It's been brought up that these might be linked (see Wise Old Guru's post in this thread), but I dislike the "conservation law" aspect of "kill the DBs, re-empower the world." I think it is better for the fantasy of Exaltation for it to be "if you wipe out the DBs, what you have accomplished is simply a world without DBs, which is the lesser for it."
              Exactly this. Consequences are a big thing that's intended to be in Exalted, and the idea of 'reversing' things isn't supposed to be much; you can't un-kill a person, and you can't un-weaken the gods who invested in Exaltation. Ten Sheaves doesn't return to life because Strawmaiden Janest died.

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              • #37
                Although... assuming a god survives the exigence, could they get promoted to a better job and thereby regain the power that was lost? Would they always be "one exigent" weaker than a god in the same post who hadn't made one?
                (Obviously exigents, unlike Yedim, are not a standard unit)

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                • #38
                  I think it's mostly just a few people with this weird idea that the exaltations are plugged into their creators. I find this train of thought fascinitating, not on the grounds of what it is (I mean you could probably do a story about some god trying to make an exigence that just draws off power as opposed to being invested with or something) more on the grounds that it seems to be coming up recently. I mean most similies and metaphors for how creating an exalt worked have been more viewed in the vein of cutting off a limb and hoping you don't bleed out or something. (Gambling gods probably get a rush on that little bet if they get the shot to make one.)

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                  • #39
                    I suddenly have this image in which the Five Elemental Dragons, being enormous kaiju monsters, are so vast that it would be difficult to tell the difference between them before and after any diminishment.

                    ​I also have this idea for the mythology of the setting in which the Dragons play a significant role in the formation of the world (namely, they interact with the Elemental Poles in a manner that creates the first elementals, whose interactions shape the initial earth), from which I could see their diminishment as taking the form of losing such a mythic capacity, leaving them as "merely" enormous entities of raw elemental power from before the world.

                    Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
                    Although... assuming a god survives the exigence, could they get promoted to a better job and thereby regain the power that was lost? Would they always be "one exigent" weaker than a god in the same post who hadn't made one?
                    (Obviously exigents, unlike Yedim, are not a standard unit)
                    ​I think that promotion only really gives benefits in the form of Essence dots and some Charms, and that the form diminishment should take is something a bit more fundamental than that.


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                    • #40
                      From what I understand, the main Exalts are something different than the Exigence. The Exigent wasn't used to create the Solars, Lunars, Sidereal or the Dragon-Blooded... nor does it appear to be used with the Liminal or Getimian Exalts. Basically, the Exigent was used to give other Gods that can't create their own Exalts the means to empower a Champion... at a cost that prevents these Gods from challenging the power of the Incarnae.

                      ​As for the Abyssals, Infernals, Alchemicals and other Exalt types that may appear later on... it seems unlikely that the Exigence will be involved. Not sure if Abyssals and Infernals (Green Sun Princes) will be corrupted Solar Exaltations or merely based on Solar Exalt designs (but not actually former Solar Exalts like they were in previous Editions)... but that may be revealed in due time.

                      ​To put it simply... the Exigence seems to be unique to the Exigent Exalts and there is no actual Law of Diminishment for the Exalted (The Incarnae are as powerful as they've always been... before and after they created their Exalted champions).


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Shadowstripe View Post
                        ​To put it simply... the Exigence seems to be unique to the Exigent Exalts and there is no actual Law of Diminishment for the Exalted (The Incarnae are as powerful as they've always been... before and after they created their Exalted champions).
                        Are they, though? We don't know. Not as regards 3e.

                        Vance has remarked that the Yozi had reason to worry about the consequences of creating their own Exalted, and evidence of those consequences in the form of the Chosen of the Incarnae and the Dragons.


                        Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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                        • #42
                          The mothers are diminished as well, we should note.

                          Anybody who's been pregnant knows it's no walk in the park. Gaia isn't the one having the babies, and neither are the Elemental Dragons.

                          Having a kid is a serious, serious ordeal. Like... yeah.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Shadowstripe View Post
                            To put it simply... the Exigence seems to be unique to the Exigent Exalts and there is no actual Law of Diminishment for the Exalted (The Incarnae are as powerful as they've always been... before and after they created their Exalted champions).
                            Wasn't the creation of the Solars the first time the Sun set? That seems to imply at least some diminishment occurred.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Exthalion View Post

                              Wasn't the creation of the Solars the first time the Sun set? That seems to imply at least some diminishment occurred.
                              Not anywhere I ever saw in writing. There was a night sky for the moon and stars to show up in afterall.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                                Not anywhere I ever saw in writing. There was a night sky for the moon and stars to show up in afterall.
                                That's from the Infernals preview for 3E, the same place we're getting the Law of Diminishment as a general rule for the creation of Exalted (and, notably, one of the few things from that preview that I believe is still a thing).

                                Why didn’t the Yozis just make their own Exalts?
                                Firstly, the secret was not known to them. Also, the gods and the Chosen did much to keep the knowledge from them. But they knew, even as they worked to deny the Demon Princes this knowledge, that the Yozis were watching, and by observation alone might decipher the secrets of Second Breath. So Autochthon secreted into the notice of She Who Lives in Her Name the knowledge of the Law of Diminishment, which was discovered by the gods when they made their Chosen, and which revealed the wasting away of those who take from themselves to make champions. Seeing Autochthon’s rapid deterioration, and the first setting of the Unconquered Sun, the Masters of Creation were horrified by the notion, and sought other methods by which to gain the advantage.


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