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  • #16
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    That's a ton of Essence 8 alchemicals...
    ​I'd say that's an advantage you get when you're immortal, your place in society is relatively secure, and your development of higher Essence is more a matter of being old and experienced enough to take on the upgrades.

    ​That being something that I would assume of Alchemicals; that they don't really have the obstacles to higher Essence that other Exalted do, because of the pause given by the sacrifices it entails.

    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
    That's why they cruelly attacked and destroyed Ixut.
    ​I can actually see a much more visceral outrage in the idea of the official propaganda in the form of "Ixut could have been saved if Yugash would have only shared with us; their selfishness and greed caused a preventable disaster".


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    • #17
      Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
      There are around 50 cities.
      Yeah I think 50 is a bit closer to the actual number. If we assume each of the Eight Nations has 5 cities each, that gives us 40 (and we know some Nations have fewer than 5 cities). Of course there's also the five Adamant cities, plus the two independent cities, and then we should say there's a few more just to be on the large side which gives us 50. We can even say that there's another 10 scattered around on top of that, which would give us as many as 60 cities. But 70 would which really be stretching it and I think 100 is simply too large of an estimate.

      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
      How well did it work? I wondered if the players being warstrider-size would be really awkward in Autocthon's tunnels. More so even than it'd be in Creation.
      It worked okay. Many of the tunnels in Autochthonia are on the large side, and oncee two of the players decided to go Warstrider size I intentionally begin planning games around their size (so they wouldn't have to sit out of the game because that's no fun). Still, sometimes there would be areas they couldn't go and the other players (who were still humans sized) would find themselves having to split up the group, and sometimes they would have to make use of their drone body Charm in order to engage in the game. But over all I was pretty lenient so it wasn't much of an issue.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

        There are around 50 cities.
        I went through Compass: Autochthonia again. There are exactly 50 confirmed cities (plus the 2 that are dead and one rumored gremlin city). Neither Sova nor Kamak have hard numbers given. There are also a few places where "major" cities are called out and one example of a minor city so I am not sure of the exact count.

        The description of Mog says he has destroyed "cities" which is at least another two.

        Claslat
        -Inner Claslat: 9 cities (Harmegis, Arat, Jandis)
        -Outer Claslat: 2 cities (Kur and Anket)

        Yugash
        4 cities (Ot, Het, Kereth, Kadar)

        Estasia
        >1 cities (Lux)

        Nurad
        -Living: 5 cities (Wisant, Shastar, Xefin)
        -Dead: 1 city (Perygra)

        Sova
        -Living: >3 cities (Imtu)
        -Dead: 1 city (Ixut)

        Kamak
        >2 cities (Ein, Trantec)

        Jarish
        2 cities (Jast and Qune)

        Gulak
        8 cities (Thutot, Mogera)

        Misc
        2 cities (Loran, Xexas)

        Adamant
        5 cities (Om)

        Gremlin
        1 rumored city (Erlik)


        Edit: Huh, there is also a Sidebar in MoEP: Alchemicals that says about 50. Found on p. 30
        Last edited by Exthalion; 09-09-2017, 04:35 PM.

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        • #19
          Projections using explicit counts balanced against the relative sizes of the countries.

          Claslat: 11 cities
          Gulak: 8 cities
          Sova: 5 cities (+1 Necropolis)
          Yugash: 4 cities
          Nurad: 4 cities (+1 Necropolis)
          Estasia: 3 cities
          Kamak: 4 cities (yes, with a smaller population than Estasia, reflecting their wealthy and lower density allowing privacy)
          Jarish: 2

          Theopoli: 5

          Xexas: 1

          Loran: 1

          Erlik (if it exists): 1

          So even if there are a handful of other cities as dispersed colonies, that's still in the 50s range.

          Exthalion, could you give me a page reference on Estasia having 8 cities in 2E? They had 3 explicitly in 1E, and 8 would be huge give they're the third smallest country population wise (same as Gulak which is the second largest).
          Last edited by glamourweaver; 09-09-2017, 04:29 PM.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            Projections using explicit counts balanced against the relative sizes of the countries.

            Claslat: 11 cities
            Gulak: 8 cities
            Sova: 5 cities (+1 Necropolis)
            Yugash: 4 cities
            Nurad: 4 cities (+1 Necropolis)
            Estasia: 3 cities
            Kamak: 4 cities (yes, with a smaller population than Estasia, reflecting their wealthy and lower density allowing privacy)
            Jarish: 2

            Theopoli: 5

            Xexas: 1

            Loran: 1

            Erlik (if it exists): 1

            So even if there are a handful of other cities as dispersed colonies, that's still in the 50s range.
            Could you give me the references for the numbers of Kamak and Sova?

            Also, you missed Xefin in Nurad which is minor and above the floor so not part of the big four.

            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            Exthalion, could you give me a page reference on Estasia having 8 cities in 2E? They had 3 explicitly in 1E, and 8 would be huge give they're the third smallest country population wise (same as Gulak which is the second largest).
            A misreading on my part from the description of the Unity War. I checked the timeline again and that was a reference to the first 8 cities period where each nation had one.
            Last edited by Exthalion; 09-09-2017, 04:42 PM.

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            • #21
              Sova and Kamak I believe were the two I had to estimate based on their relative size and the number of cities the nations around them in scale had. It wouldn't be unreasonable to project Sova up to 6 post-Ixut, or lower Kamak to 3 on par with Estasia.
              Last edited by glamourweaver; 09-09-2017, 05:00 PM.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
                Even the Viator didn't actually destroy any cities.
                Not for lack of trying, mind.

                ​I'm going to assume that many references to destroyed cities, particularly as regards the actions of Mog, are referring to what are technically the Autochthonian towns.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                • #23
                  I assume there were some municipal alchemicals in older eras that may have been destroyed and weren't in a position to leave a frozen corpse like Perygra.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                    I think you'll find that all true patriotic Sovans know exactly who is responsible for Ixut's destruction. Yugash! They were jealous of Sova's success and love of family. That's why they cruelly attacked and destroyed Ixut. Thus, sorrowfully, Sova was forced to declare war against Yugash. Stunning victories sent the Yugashi reeling, and they fled before Sovan vengeance, unable to destroy anymore Sovan cities.
                    As the guy who wrote Sova, I approve this line of reasoning.


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                    Beleaguered Scion Developer

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                    • #25
                      You did a really good job. I like Sova so much I played a guy from Sova in a game set in the North/Realm, and had Sova as one of the main nearby powers in my Solar/Lunar game set near Ember.


                      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                        Personally I think Alchemicals' development post essence 5 is sufficiently divorced from how exalted normally work to keep it as it was.

                        Essentially, alchemicals have always been limited to 5 dots of essence. That's the core of the game. The essence 6+ stuff turns them into... something else. And municipal charms aren't really essence 8+ charms as we know them. They're infrastructure.
                        Likewise, the Essence >6 Charms given to Alchemicals are quite useless on the scale at which Metropoli live. Piston-Driven Megaton Hammer is so useless to municipal scale activities that it doesn't make sense for it to serve even as a prerequisite for some sort of piston-driven factory. It would be better to have no prerequisite for Municipal Charms except for other Municipal Charms.

                        The Metropolis' old champion/colossus-scale Charms would only function within the scope of the avatar colossus it might keep in a silo somewhere.


                        I believe this has the interesting effect of allowing a character whose Essence is explicitly far above 5 to be a member of a lower-Essence assembly of Alchemical heroes, by virtue of representing that character as an avatar of a greater Metropolis or Patropolis which is in turn represented largely through the player's chosen Background Merits.


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                        • #27
                          What you could do is have the colossi be more of an expansion pack. The Alchemical stays at essence 5, and the colossus body acts as a sort of bespoke warstrider only they can pilot, holding the extra one or two essence and all the special colossus charms. When they go city, the original body and the colossus sort of merge, forming the core.

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                          • #28
                            I'm just hoping for a way to form patropoli and metropoli in Creation. I have fun ideas for some

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
                              I'm just hoping for a way to form patropoli and metropoli in Creation. I have fun ideas for some
                              Seems like it would be pretty straightforward; you find a powerful desmense and cap it using an Alchemical ready to transform into a city as the "manse."


                              "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                                That and there won't be cascades of higher essence Charms. High Essence Exalted can be expected to have 1 or 2 unique signature powers as high essence Charms, but that's it.

                                Given that that's the case with other Exalted, Alchemicals presumably won't be able to get a TON of upgrades at higher essence and remain balanced, so - given the lower starting Essence in 3E - I'd strongly speculate that colossi will happen at Essence 4-5 this time, and can be integrated right into the core charmset of the Alchemicals. Then Municipal Alchemicals happen at Essence 6 rather than Essence 8 (which would seem to fit their numbers better), and any giant power upgrades at that point come with playability trade-offs (players not wanting to make that step reflecting Alchemicals' own fears about it and choosing to stay at Essence 5).
                                It's far more likely that the Alchemicals do not follow that "normal" 9for other exalts) path of progression. If they decide to go cross the essence thresholds (6 and 8 appropriately), they become something else. As such, they gain access to charms that are specifically meant for their new forms, while making at least some of their original ones no longer applicable (barring some sort of an Avatar form). Colossi charms are not an upgrade to the Alchemical - they are simply meant for their bigger, changed forms. The same with Municipal upgrades - they are useful only for a city, so have no impact on balancing their Avatar and Colossi subforms.

                                TL/DR: a humanoform of an Essence 10 partopolis is in no way stronger than an essence 5 Alchemical with a similar pool of xp spent on core charms/traits. And higher essence charms available for colossi and Polis are not stronger. They are just meant for different forms, and operate on different scale. Thus, there's no balance problem at all.



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