Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

why were the terms of surrender so harsh for the primordials?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • why were the terms of surrender so harsh for the primordials?

    couldn't they just make it so they are permanently banished to the wyld? or if for some reason they have to be exiled Elsewhere why on earth did they need to be mutilated? or have their souls subject to enslavement? humiliating a defeated enemy that can one day conceivably fight back is THE way to have world war II

  • #2
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    couldn't they just make it so they are permanently banished to the wyld? or if for some reason they have to be exiled Elsewhere why on earth did they need to be mutilated? or have their souls subject to enslavement? humiliating a defeated enemy that can one day conceivably fight back is THE way to have world war II
    I think when/if humanity learns this lesson in the real world we can all go back and re-approach the question; alas..


    Blasphemy? No, it is not blasphemy. If God is as vast as that, he is above blasphemy; if He is as little as that, He is beneath it.
    - Mark Twain, a Biography

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mark View Post
      couldn't they just make it so they are permanently banished to the wyld?
      No.

      Originally posted by mark
      or if for some reason they have to be exiled Elsewhere why on earth did they need to be mutilated?
      Because that's what you need to do to banish them forever.

      Originally posted by mark
      or have their souls subject to enslavement?
      Well, occasionally. As in "hold an annual meeting with the intention of preventing those demons from being summoned" occasionally. Still, they're very useful.

      Originally posted by mark
      humiliating a defeated enemy that can one day conceivably fight back is THE way to have world war II
      ​Well, there's never exactly going to be a war, because the Yozis cannot escape.

      ​Still, it's Catch-22; there's no scenario in which the Yozis lose and don't become dangerous forever.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

        No.



        Because that's what you need to do to banish them forever.



        Well, occasionally. As in "hold an annual meeting with the intention of preventing those demons from being summoned" occasionally. Still, they're very useful.



        ​Well, there's never exactly going to be a war, because the Yozis cannot escape.

        ​Still, it's Catch-22; there's no scenario in which the Yozis lose and don't become dangerous forever.



        uhm why is mutilation needed to banish them forever? plus there can be a war. you know the whole "make creation like hell so we can escape the prison thing"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mark View Post

          uhm why is mutilation needed to banish them forever? plus there can be a war. you know the whole "make creation like hell so we can escape the prison thing"

          Mutilation is neccessary because Theion/Malfeas-before-he-was-malfeas (Theion is a good stand in I think Concept Wise) was nigh omnipotent. Oramous could, without mutilation, get vengance far greater than with it. Yozi are less than the primodials, because Primodials ready and organized for war is alot scarier than the already terrifying concept of fighting the creators of existence. How do you banish someone who can change the rules of reality? ESPECIALLY when you just took all of it's stuff? You break the part that does the reality warping.

          As for if there can be a war, the reclamation's status has been neboulus as of late. I don't recall dev position, but most of it appears to be some variation of "no they can't escape. ever. Anything they can achieve is petty proxy vengance at best."


          I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

          Comment


          • #6
            Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it canon at one point that the Yozis are, in fact, subject to enslavement in the same way that their lesser souls are, but only the Gods themselves can call upon their surrender oaths; that powers was never delegated to the Exalted.

            Or am I nuts?


            "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

            Comment


            • #7
              Mutilation specifically being part of their binding was a 2e thing, again. So that helps in context a bit. Mind, in 1e there is stilla bit where they were made to build the prison so it's still not pleasant for them there.

              As to why not just shunt them into elsewhere forever, Savant & Sorcerer had probably the best line on the topic:

              The gods would have loved nothing more than to lock the Yozis away in a closed universe, a prison of geometric perfection that would – from Creation’s perspective, -- no longer exist, where every path from outward looped back inward so thoroughly that the concept of “out” was lost. They dared not. Doing so would have invited the most terrible of revenges, plagues beyond the imagination of man and god. This is not because such a prison would anger the Primordials; their rage already surpasses boundaries. Rather, they would have nothing left to lose. Nothing in Creation could pose a further threat to them. They could unleash horrors capable of devouring all the world and the Primordials for dessert. Such monsters could never reach the Yozis, if their prison were perfect, nor would any other consequence.

              For this reason, the gods demanded more than imprisonment – they required subservience. The First Circle would abase itself before the Dragon-Blooded; the princes of Hell would serve the Celestial Exalted; the souls of the Yozis would kneel to the Solars; and the Yozis themselves would come at the beck and call of the Maiden of Endings and the Unconquered Sun. If the Yozis gave such parting gifts to Creation as to break the world, the gods would call them to account.


              Things to remember: The originally plan was to just kill them all, but Gaia interceded there I think was something in GoD (need to check). But since they weren't gonna kill them all, they had to do something so as to make sure the soon-to-be-Yozis didn't 1) Have a chance of getting out, 2) Coudl be checked on and 3) Didn't have so little to lose that going all-out in retaliation was not an option.

              I think these need to be kept in mind, also about how much the mutilation bit is actually mutilation in the sense of soul-execution like 2e introduced, or more changing them in other ways, unique to each Yozi, to lock them in Hell.


              And stuff.
              Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

              Comment


              • #8
                Blaque with the solid quotes.

                As for the mutilation bit: 2E introduced the idea of this being done with soul-surgery-type-things. 1E, though, was pretty high on the cosmic-body-horror: Malfeas "has been turned inside out to form his eternal prison... In his rage and frustration, he has grown new cities of his flesh and sent them slamming against the older cities that surround them -- a hundred times, at least, and perhaps a thousand." It's also where the notion that Oramus's prison was made of his own wings was introduced, that's not a 2Eism either.

                Why can you not banish the Cosmic Tyrant forever without mutilating him? Because he's the Cosmic Tyrant and you have not stripped him of his power. You're dealing with entities that are more real than reality is, because they predate it -- stripping him of his power to hurt you and turning him inside-out to form his own prison are the same thing.


                Glorious Solar Kitten

                Comment


                • #9
                  Things to remember: The originally plan was to just kill them all, but Gaia interceded there
                  Well, also every time they killed one it did bad things to Creation, like create an entirely shadow-dimension that trapped souls outside the cycle of reincarnation, and drove holes through the fabric of reality around the graves of the dead Primordials.
                  So they were worried that killing all of them would destroy Creation.


                  "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Blaque, you are the best one.

                    Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                    Things to remember: The originally plan was to just kill them all, but Gaia interceded there I think was something in GoD (need to check).
                    Even above and beyond that... killing the Primordials they did in the war created the Underworld and the Neverborn, two problems that even the First Age Solars never found a real satisfactory solution to.

                    Throwing a whole bunch more dead Primordials onto the pile of the Neverborn might have had really bad consequences nobody could foresee.

                    EDITED TO ADD: Sunder typed faster than me.
                    Last edited by Murcushio; 09-15-2017, 03:52 PM.


                    "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Plus I think everyone was firmly disturbed by the existence of the Neverborn.* That was a bit I liked in 2E's explanation was the idea that a few of the Primordials become much less willing to fight once they saw that not only could they die, but seeing the Neverborn as what they became led to a bunch deciding they didn't want anymore of this crap.

                      *Not just that problems were being made by killing Primordials just that the result were really freaking everyone the hell out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Also I'll chime in that everything in Exalted... the gods, the exalted themselves, the problems faced, they're all very Human problems. Love, Loss, Hate, Freedom, they're all the things people fight for, with their human hearts, human minds. Now comes the end of the war, the great surrender. You won against the hated enemy who has done horrible things to/against you time out of mind. You don't just want to defeat them, you have the urge to *punish* them for what they did. How dare they be so horrible, how dare they kill so many that you cared about. This leads to very nasty results.

                        If you want the very human example, take a look at Europe at the end of WWI. In the eyes of the allies, Germany did wrong, and needed to be punished for what they did. And they were. Because even leaders are full of human emotions.


                        Odd_Canuck is not a topical medication or food product and is not to be taken internally or seriously.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Second Edition went overboard with the idea of the Yozis being in eternal pain to be sure, but whether one wants to call it mutilation or not, it still amounts to them all being twisted into each other to ensure that they act as a collective prison.

                          Originally posted by mark
                          there can be a war. you know the whole "make creation like hell so we can escape the prison thing


                          ​Disregard that; it won't have any presence in the books from herein.


                          Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                          probably the best line on the topic:
                          Ahh, I remember that line.

                          ​It smacks me as vastly overthinking things, as well as affording too much to both the gods and the Yozis. It's in the same boat as fixating on the supposed question of why the Exalted get to have free will rather than be complete slaves to their patrons, with all kinds of ridiculously elaborate explanations about how free will is necessary for the zanoits to work.

                          ​"Oh, why didn't the gods create a prison so complete and perfect that the very concept of "out" was eliminated from it?"
                          ".... Because they couldn't?"


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mark View Post
                            couldn't they just make it so they are permanently banished to the wyld? or if for some reason they have to be exiled Elsewhere why on earth did they need to be mutilated? or have their souls subject to enslavement? humiliating a defeated enemy that can one day conceivably fight back is THE way to have world war II
                            The Primordials are the most dangerous things in Existence. If they were released into the Wyld they could someday threaten Creation again, even by accident if they create Another Universe.

                            And this was old School premodern ethics so right of victory did not wipe out the option of Genocide. Luckily Gaia had the Foresight/mercy to know genociding the Primordial host would taint Creation irrevocably, considering even one Primordial dying caused oodles of taint and bad karma.

                            So they mutilated them in a way were they were too preoccupied by their own trauma and neuroses to be able to become the fonts of Genesis they were before. Now without access to Creation and the Wyld they are not able to truly create new things only taint and corrupt. While at the same time Creation has access to limitless superslaves and the Unconquered Sun and Saturn can summon a Yozis if they ever need to defend Creation from an Apcalyptic threat or wipe out a civil war, say Exalt rebellion.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              ...

                              Ahh, I remember that line.

                              ​It smacks me as vastly overthinking things, as well as affording too much to both the gods and the Yozis. It's in the same boat as fixating on the supposed question of why the Exalted get to have free will rather than be complete slaves to their patrons, with all kinds of ridiculously elaborate explanations about how free will is necessary for the zanoits to work.

                              ​"Oh, why didn't the gods create a prison so complete and perfect that the very concept of "out" was eliminated from it?"
                              ".... Because they couldn't?"
                              I'd actually argue in this case it was Jenna Moran going purple prose leading up to the next part which talked more about demon binding and such. It's less "WHy is this the case?" and trying to explain that, and thinking, "This would be a cool reason for why sorcery works" is probably the train of logic she had, even if had a bit "explaining too much" consequences.


                              And stuff.
                              Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X