Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

why were the terms of surrender so harsh for the primordials?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Epee102 View Post


    Mutilation is neccessary because Theion/Malfeas-before-he-was-malfeas (Theion is a good stand in I think Concept Wise) was nigh omnipotent. Oramous could, without mutilation, get vengance far greater than with it. Yozi are less than the primodials, because Primodials ready and organized for war is alot scarier than the already terrifying concept of fighting the creators of existence. How do you banish someone who can change the rules of reality? ESPECIALLY when you just took all of it's stuff? You break the part that does the reality warping.

    As for if there can be a war, the reclamation's status has been neboulus as of late. I don't recall dev position, but most of it appears to be some variation of "no they can't escape. ever. Anything they can achieve is petty proxy vengance at best."

    in return of the scarlet empress it says that if a fetich is killed the primordial/yozi turns into an essence soup of sorts that redefines itsself by spawning a new fetich. so perhaps the exalted "guided" this reform somehow?? that is i assume that binding oramus in his wings was more complicated that taking some needles and sewing them together .

    couldn't the surrender oath include a line saying "i will never try to escape or affect creation. period"
    also i'm not sure if oramus had his fetich murdered. he still has his name after all .

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by mark View Post


      in return of the scarlet empress it says that if a fetich is killed the primordial/yozi turns into an essence soup of sorts that redefines itsself by spawning a new fetich. so perhaps the exalted "guided" this reform somehow?? that is i assume that binding oramus in his wings was more complicated that taking some needles and sewing them together .

      couldn't the surrender oath include a line saying "i will never try to escape or affect creation. period"
      also i'm not sure if oramus had his fetich murdered. he still has his name after all .
      Oramus fetich may have been spared but he was bound in his own wings, unable to see or interact with his fellow Yozi even.

      And what power would compel them to follow their oath? Malfeas-that-was was the embodiment of authority. He was supreme king.
      Perhaps he'd obey for a time, stung by defeat(although arguably not, since I think his fetich death was needed to begin with) and then break it to restore his unlimited power. Malfeas and the other primodials cannot change or be changed except by painful experiences(see autos self surgery). They are that they are. Until something breaks.


      I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by mark View Post
        couldn't the surrender oath include a line saying "i will never try to escape or affect creation. period"
        For the sake of simplicity, I assume that the way that the Yozis were imprisoned was about the best that could be done under the circumstances.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

          For the sake of simplicity, I assume that the way that the Yozis were imprisoned was about the best that could be done under the circumstances.
          didn't the gods originally plan to execute them but stopped because of gaia?(and seeing the neverborn)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by mark View Post
            didn't the gods originally plan to execute them but stopped because of gaia?
            Yes, and…?

            Originally posted by mark View Post
            (and seeing the neverborn)
            We already disputed this one.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post

              We already disputed this one.
              I don't really see the problem with "The Gods didn't want to kill all the Primordials because they were worried about the effects." It seems like a pretty reasonable reason.


              "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                I don't really see the problem with "The Gods didn't want to kill all the Primordials because they were worried about the effects." It seems like a pretty reasonable reason.
                Yeah, I think most of the Exalted Host and the Incarna were aware by that point that killing Primordials tended to have massive negative side-effects for Creation, the poisoning of the Essence, the creation of massive Shadowlands, etc, and that knowledge probably played some role in the decision not to murder all of the Primordials, even if it wasn't the deciding factor.

                Comment


                • #53
                  all of this leads to some interesting conclusions. for instance if ligier and maybe cecelyne's fetiches were killed... does the imprisonment end?? plus it would be pretty funny if the yozis all committed suicide,creation ended... and instead of falling to oblivion they all fell to the wyld and became primordials again

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by mark View Post
                    all of this leads to some interesting conclusions. for instance if ligier and maybe cecelyne's fetiches were killed... does the imprisonment end?? plus it would be pretty funny if the yozis all committed suicide,creation ended... and instead of falling to oblivion they all fell to the wyld and became primordials again

                    I believe the fear of becoming Neverborn holds off that route...
                    Fetich death as a way out is...debatable. It might work, but it's basically suicide as well. Its deciding to fundamentally and irrevocably damage yourself to become something else.
                    Primodials and the wyld have strange relationships that aren't super clear to me (mainly because the invovle Shinma, a concept I've never bothered to delve deep into).


                    I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by mark View Post
                      all of this leads to some interesting conclusions. for instance if ligier and maybe cecelyne's fetiches were killed... does the imprisonment end??
                      That would be a significant oversight.

                      Originally posted by mark
                      plus it would be pretty funny if the yozis all committed suicide,creation ended... and instead of falling to oblivion they all fell to the wyld and became primordials again
                      No resurrection.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I swear I remember reading somewhere that part of the surrender oaths were the Yozi weren't allowed to end themselves or the others. Could be wrong, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to think something like that was in there. Even if the gods were reasonably certain that something like the Demon City becoming the Horrible Beach Resort wouldn't release the Yozi. Primordial's becoming new forms isn't exactly a known and easily predicted science. For crying out loud Adjoran used to be a laughing river as opposed to the silent wind, and that's if we don't take Sacheveral into account seeing how it waking up is one of the many doomsday scenarios for 2nd.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I don't understand why the first few chapters of Infernals piss people off this much (aside from the weird implicit assumption that the Infernal Exalted themselves could never ever be good people, that was indeed a big problem). I never read it as a genuine attempt to drum up sympathy for the Yozis, anymore than I saw the Abyssals book drumming up sympathy for the Neverborn. They were just doing what they do every book - portraying a side from its own perspective.

                          Maybe nobody else gives a shit about how the Yozis feel, but the Yozis and their servants give a shit how the Yozis feel, and frankly, that matters *a lot* because they still have the power to do things and playing their servants is a legit possibility. The Infernals and Yozis *themselves* are throwing an angry pity party and, in 2e at least, it was the designers' intentions that the Yozis still had ways to influence the setting significantly (like through their Green Sun Princes), and further that they could still take antagonist roles in a campaign, and for those reasons it's useful to be able to get inside the heads of them and their supporters.

                          Like, it's less noticeable because these institutions are generally not widely reviled, but Lunars is written from a pro-Lunar (and generally, but not entirely, pro-Silver Pact) stance, to help the readers get into the headspace of Lunars and how they feel they've been victimized and what institutions they respect. Sidereals is written from a perspective in general support of Heaven (but with a degree of antagonism towards the Celestial gods, because Sidereals themselves often experience that) and the essential nature of the Sidereals' job so that people can get into the headspace of their Sidereal characters. The Roll of Glorious Divinity focusing on the Celestial Bureaucracy in turn is mostly sympathetic to everything the Celestial gods do on the playing field of the setting with that same hint of antagonism towards the Sidereal Exalted.

                          There isn't anything improper about painting the Yozis as downtrodden, wronged, superior beings fighting against an injust system in a book about them. That's not because it's true, or even worth considering as a possibility to any remotely sane person outside their sphere of influence, but because recognizing that they (and their servants) feel that way about themselves and being able to get into that headspace is important for running or playing them well.

                          It's just harder to see that because the side is so plainly reviled (and deserves to be!), but in that case I wonder why people don't complain more about the first couple of chapters of Abyssals (aside from, again, not devoting any page space to representing renegade Infernals).

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by mark View Post
                            all of this leads to some interesting conclusions. for instance if ligier and maybe cecelyne's fetiches were killed... does the imprisonment end?? plus it would be pretty funny if the yozis all committed suicide,creation ended... and instead of falling to oblivion they all fell to the wyld and became primordials again
                            I don't have the quote here, but the one from Savant & Sorcerer on this more or less said that even suicide won't get you out. Someting to textant that "Even if Ligier were slain, he would live on in some form as a Red Star" or something like that. The very core and soul of the Yozis are bound, such that they have no way to ever get out of Hell short of annihilation as I gather.


                            And stuff.
                            Made signature by moderator request. Any actual typing of "And stuff." is out of habitual reflex.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Remedy View Post
                              They were just doing what they do every book - portraying a side from its own perspective.
                              ​That space would have been better spent talking about the Infernal Exalted.

                              ​By the by, I also see Manual: Abyssals devoting an entire chapter to descriptions of the Deathlords to be even more of a bad use of word count.


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Remedy View Post
                                I don't understand why the first few chapters of Infernals piss people off this much (aside from the weird implicit assumption that the Infernal Exalted themselves could never ever be good people, that was indeed a big problem). I never read it as a genuine attempt to drum up sympathy for the Yozis, anymore than I saw the Abyssals book drumming up sympathy for the Neverborn. They were just doing what they do every book - portraying a side from its own perspective.
                                At least part because of things like Lilun where Infernals challenge one another to rape her as a contest of skill. You know, things like that which color the entire Infernal experience and can very easily turn someone off from wanting to play an Infernal altogether.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X