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When you're not afraid that someone might have fun with moonsilver

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
    Sort of. Remember, the text implies that "unusual" ones do - it does introduce the idea, and doesn't forbid it. It just makes it clear that that's not the usual way Moonsilver is used.

    Whereas, say, producing large amounts of fire is pretty normal for red jade. Even incinerating an entire fortress is a matter of power level, not flavor. By my reading, evocation effects that treat the artifact as a completely protean mass are discouraged here for flavor reasons and not because they'd be too powerful or "too much."

    I think it's because it presents the problem that if EVERY Moonsilver weapon can shapeshift from sword to spear to bow or whatever, then... is there much of a difference between one Moonsilver weapon and another?

    It doesn't seem like it. So most Moonsilver weapons should have some defined structure to them, in order to assist in making them each more distinct and notable. Like, instead of a Moonsilver spear shapeshifting into a sword, the Lunar can use an Evocation to make the Moonsilver spear's shaft extend with explosive penetrating power or giving the Lunar sudden reach across a range band for one attack.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
      Sort of. Remember, the text implies that "unusual" ones do - it does introduce the idea, and doesn't forbid it. It just makes it clear that that's not the usual way Moonsilver is used.
      Isn't it, though?

      Exactly how does a longfang flex or a daiklave extend if not in a way that resembles water or clay? Assuming that the ax-head flaps its twin heads like an actual moth's wings, wouldn't the metal bending in such ways likewise be a little clay-like?


      But since you like it, let's try to include it.

      Moonsilver’s Essence is protean and wild. Its Evocations can provide a wielder new instincts or mystical insights. Some Evocations involve the artifact flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay. Its attacks can be subtle and insidious, inflicting poisons, slivers of heart-seeking metal, or ever-bleeding wounds. Otherwise, its attacks are flamboyant and barely restrained; a longfang might flex to strike around interposing blades, a daiklave might stretch to drive its point deeper into vital organs, and a grimcleaver might release its mighty ax-head to fly into the Lunar’s foes like a moth, only to draw it back in the next moment.

      101 words. Still leaves 16 spare to try and introduce at least one other thing that moonsilver might be able to do besides reshaping itself.


      And wait, isn't it odd that there are three different concrete examples of one principle (shapeshifting)? Did the paragraph on orichalcum give us three different examples for how to apply a principle like "burns the unclean" or "harnessing the power of light"? Or did it instead use the word count to introduce two more new ideas?

      And that's assuming you don't -- as I do -- see the poison and heart-seeking silvers ideas as applications of moonsilver harnessing its fluidity to shapeshift part of itself into liquid silver poison or squirming razor slivers. Even the ever-bleeding wounds could be seen as the moonsilver blade inflicting aggravated damage through forming thousands of tiny barbs.

      I don't have a problem with this focus, except for the fact that the paragraph is clearly building up how fluid and claylike moonsilver can be, and then spends words trying to claim that moonsilver isn't exactly that.

      And this on top of turning the second sentence into meaningless soup when cutting a handful of words out could have left it meaning something.
      Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 10-06-2017, 10:45 PM.


      Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

      My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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      • #18
        Here's how it seems to me.


        Moonsilver extruding some of itself as a liquid poison is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

        Breaking off slivers of itself that squirm into and through someone's body to seek their heart is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

        Sprouting thousands of microscopic barbs to tear and pull at flesh to create terribly bleeding wounds that even Exalted can't close up or properly heal is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

        A longfang flexing and twisting its shaft to strike past a parrying weapon is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

        A daiklave stretching its blade to strike deeper is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

        An ax-head coming free from a shaft and then reattaching itself so solidly as to retain an artifact's indestructibility is probably "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay". Especially if flying "like a moth" involves flapping the ax's double head like a pair of wings.


        Does it not seem like this to anyone else?
        Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 10-08-2017, 11:06 AM.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          Here's how it seems to me.


          Moonsilver extruding some of itself as a liquid poison is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

          Breaking off slivers of itself that squirm into and through someone's body to seek their heart is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

          Sprouting thousands of microscopic barbs to tear and pull at flesh to create terribly bleeding wounds that even Exalted can't close up or properly heal is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

          A longfang flexing and twisting its shaft to strike past a parrying weapon is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

          A daiklave stretching its blade to strike deeper is "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay".

          An ax-head coming free from a shaft and then reattaching itself so solidly as to retain an artifact's indestructibility is probably "flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay". Especially if flying "like a moth" involves flapping the ax's double head like a pair of wings.


          Does it not seem like this to anyone else?

          Flowing and reshaping itself like water or clay seems more like "my daiklaive now a grimcleaver" or "my spear head is now a mace" or "my grim cleaver is now a shield". The examples you give keep the object as, essentially, the same object. The longfang is longer, but it's a longfang. The ax-head flying off and coming back is still an ax-head.


          I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

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          • #20
            Sunder, you have had however long it has been since release to think about a very narrow subset of the Corebook. The original writers produced many thousands of words under time constraints while you are fiddling with a few dozen.
            Are you trying to say that the Core would have been better if the writers and devs had devoted as much time as you can to every paragraph or that something produced under pressures you don't have is somehow worse than what you have produced? That isn't really saying much.

            The Core was not actually about Lunars, their thematics hadn't been fully established and there was not a robust preexisting framework to be drawn from. So if the phrasing of a single paragraph does not accord with your ideal Lunar themes it is hardly surprising.

            A charitable reading of the original seems to suggest that Moonsilver weapons can change shape but not into other artifacts of the same type because that gives you multiple artifacts for the cost of one which is hardly fair. Perhaps it also means that every single moonsilver artifact isn't also a multitool that can turn into various pieces of equipment. That seems to be the point of the water or clay line.

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            • #21
              I'm pretty sure that the reason that that clause is there is because otherwise people would draw a straight line between the signature shapeshifting Exalted and their signature MM, and come up with "Shapeshifting omni-weapons are a common expression of Moonsilver." It is, in a way, related to the Games of Divinity line claiming the Yozis can never escape, albeit less restrictive: It's one of the first ideas--if not the idea--people are prone to work with, and it's a restriction (albeit a gentler one) encouraging players to come up with other possibilities, knowing they can and will ignore that clause if they really want to.

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              • #22
                Not to mention "shapeshifting omni-weapons" were actually a thing in first edition.

                So no, that was not wasted wordcount. Not even close.

                That said, an artifact that can shift between multiple mundane weapons might be ok. No evocations or anything, unless the shifting itself counts. Do you think that could squeeze in 2 dots or are we talking 3?

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                • #23
                  If it's mortal weapon stats, I don't see why it can't be level 2.



                  "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                    If it's mortal weapon stats, I don't see why it can't be level 2.
                    I dunno here guys,

                    The artifact/mortal weapon division was specifically introduced to reduce complexity (that they then pumped back up in evocations). Plus it's pretty bizarre to be trying to create an artifact weapon that is inferior to all other artifact weapons in every way. Like as the crafter you'd have to specifically dull the edge or make it unwieldy in some way to match the stats of mundane weapons. If you want multiple mundane weapons, why would you not just carry around multiple mundane weapons? They don't cost background dots after all and this proposed artifact is still going to look like a moonsilver artifact.

                    Maybe something that can be concealed instead? Like a set of bracers that transform back and forth between a set of slayer khatars or Tiger claws or something? That'd be a place I'd use moonsilver that seems to fit its themes.

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                    • #25
                      That seems like a perfectly reasonable power for a normal moonsilver weapon. I was going to more flexible extremes, and I think an omni-weapon might be a bit overpowered if it used artifact stats.

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                      • #26
                        I would require a whole Evocation for each different form. But I'm usually more interested in a weapon that takes a few meaningful and related forms than simply as many as possible.


                        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                        • #27
                          One thing I think would be cool would be to have two swords that fuse into one bigger sword, but I can't figure out a way to make this mechanically beneficial.

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