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  • Originally posted by A Not Quite Simple Soul View Post
    I have this thing about people who try to spout garbage about the strong being worthy of survival and the weak not so much.

    1. Everyone is weak at some point, and not just as babies, letting valuable, skilled, and experienced people die off before they teach everything they can to their replacements is a good way to get your ass extinct.

    2. Define strength, physical brawn? Overall combat power? Group combat power? individual combat power? loyalty commanded? wealth wielded? No matter how you define strength there's going to be obvious examples of how other people with different skills are needed and vital to a culture.

    3. Most of the time it's just self serving claptrap designed to elevate themselves and make them feel like they're allowed to push other people around because they're not part of the same group. Otherwise they'd have sought out and followed people who are ridiculously strong and well known, like Ozpin.

    Raven tried to pull this bullshit on her own brother, so without some pretty hefty evidence otherwise she either believes it, or is spouting it off because it's convenient. Neither scenario make me want to see anything happen to her except a swift death.
    While it looks pretty likely that she believes strongly in whatever specific philosophy she's endorsing, and I don't agree with it, I feel like you're making some assumptions to assist in your rush to judgment. We don't know a lot of specifics of her creed. We don't know how much of it is shaped by the specific demands of the world of Remnant. We know she used to believe in something else, and then apparently had her faith broken, specifically by Ozpin. How, and how did that lead her to who she has become?

    I'm not trying to defend her as having a valid viewpoint or anything, but "a swift death" seems to be an overreaction, based on what we know so far. Raven and her people are rough, sure, and holding some territory by force, but seeing the parallels between RWBY and Exalted, and comparing her to my expectations of a Lunar warlord, she ranks more as an uneasy neighbor than someone who needs dealt with urgently. In my opinion, anyway.

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    • oh great, now the SS Freezer Burn is joining the fray again

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      • Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
        oh great, now the SS Freezer Burn is joining the fray again
        Pretty sure RT is baiting the fans with that one.

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        • Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
          oh great, now the SS Freezer Burn is joining the fray again
          I personally didn't see anything SHIPPY about the hug, so much as Weiss has spent several months spending time with the worst members of her family (that is, the ones who aren't Winter) and then was kidnapped by Bandits and Oh thank the GODS it's someone she actually likes and supports her and treats her nicely and-


          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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          • Originally posted by Ren9077 View Post

            While it looks pretty likely that she believes strongly in whatever specific philosophy she's endorsing, and I don't agree with it, I feel like you're making some assumptions to assist in your rush to judgment. We don't know a lot of specifics of her creed. We don't know how much of it is shaped by the specific demands of the world of Remnant. We know she used to believe in something else, and then apparently had her faith broken, specifically by Ozpin. How, and how did that lead her to who she has become?

            I'm not trying to defend her as having a valid viewpoint or anything, but "a swift death" seems to be an overreaction, based on what we know so far. Raven and her people are rough, sure, and holding some territory by force, but seeing the parallels between RWBY and Exalted, and comparing her to my expectations of a Lunar warlord, she ranks more as an uneasy neighbor than someone who needs dealt with urgently. In my opinion, anyway.
            The problem is precisely the specific demands of remnant. Her philosophy is the precise opposite of what is needed to advance society and technology, technology that is desperately needed, even by 'strong' people like Raven and her followers. Furthermore technology is the only advantage the remni have that could eventually free them from the threat of the Grimm, either by getting them off the planet, or by allowing them to field enough powerful weapons to take back the world the hard way.

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            • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
              I personally didn't see anything SHIPPY about the hug, so much as Weiss has spent several months spending time with the worst members of her family (that is, the ones who aren't Winter) and then was kidnapped by Bandits and Oh thank the GODS it's someone she actually likes and supports her and treats her nicely and-
              Exactly. The specific timeline wasn't revealed, but for all we know Weiss left for Atlas before Yang even got to a hospital after what happened, and she might not have heard a peep since (it didn't seem like she was talking much to Ironwood even). Just finally seeing that Yang isn't dead or permanently crippled would have been a relief, let alone the help her sudden arrival represented.


              I thank the Devs for the great game of Exalted!

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              • Originally posted by A Not Quite Simple Soul View Post

                The problem is precisely the specific demands of remnant. Her philosophy is the precise opposite of what is needed to advance society and technology, technology that is desperately needed, even by 'strong' people like Raven and her followers. Furthermore technology is the only advantage the remni have that could eventually free them from the threat of the Grimm, either by getting them off the planet, or by allowing them to field enough powerful weapons to take back the world the hard way.
                You are not wrong in the general sense, but I'm seeing some assumptions about the specific character in question that I'm not sure are supported at this time. Maybe I missed something, but was she ever presented as anti-technology? All I am certain about is that she mistrusts the current society structure - which DEFINITELY has some real issues - and Ozpin in particular, who definitely has secrets remaining. Also, her philosophy of determination and personal achievement is not something that would have alienated, for instance, Tesla, Newton, or Ford. Maybe she goes one way or another in the end, but I think Raven has too much gray area left to conclude yet that she's definitely a force for ill.

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                • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                  I personally didn't see anything SHIPPY about the hug, so much as Weiss has spent several months spending time with the worst members of her family (that is, the ones who aren't Winter) and then was kidnapped by Bandits and Oh thank the GODS it's someone she actually likes and supports her and treats her nicely and-
                  What you are describing here is the sensible, sane position. As such, it has no value in the Ship Wars.

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                  • Originally posted by Ren9077 View Post

                    You are not wrong in the general sense, but I'm seeing some assumptions about the specific character in question that I'm not sure are supported at this time. Maybe I missed something, but was she ever presented as anti-technology? All I am certain about is that she mistrusts the current society structure - which DEFINITELY has some real issues - and Ozpin in particular, who definitely has secrets remaining. Also, her philosophy of determination and personal achievement is not something that would have alienated, for instance, Tesla, Newton, or Ford. Maybe she goes one way or another in the end, but I think Raven has too much gray area left to conclude yet that she's definitely a force for ill.
                    Her apparent stated position is that she doesn't believe in carrying those members of society who can't fend for themselves. That directly opposes the possibility that someone will be able to dedicate their live to study and experimentation enough to develop advanced technology. Study and research take time, a lot of it, during which these people will need to be fed and supported by other members of the group.

                    She doesn't have to be anti-technology. She may love the power that technology brings. But no tribe run by her based on the principles of 'no hand outs' is going to be developing any tech. No one will have the time.


                    I thank the Devs for the great game of Exalted!

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                    • Originally posted by Ren9077 View Post
                      Also, her philosophy of determination and personal achievement is not something that would have alienated, for instance, Tesla, Newton, or Ford.
                      Tesla and Newton would have approved of a philosophy that says "It's okay to descend on towns, plunder them, kill or subdue all who stand in your way, and then leave the survivors to be wiped out by the magical fear-monsters who wander the world and whom you caused to be strengthened and empowered by this act?"

                      I... kinda doubt that.

                      Maybe she goes one way or another in the end, but I think Raven has too much gray area left to conclude yet that she's definitely a force for ill.
                      Raven is absolutely a force for ill. She's a thief, a murderer, a Grimm-enabler, a kidnapper, and a human trafficker. Raven hits teenage girls who have just been through a shipwreck in the head and then ties them up and puts them in cages until she can extort a big pile of lien from their kin.

                      She's Roman Torchwick with better legs, and she belongs in a cell just like he did.


                      "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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                      • We haven't actually seen her bandit group in action. Not all "bandit groups" are the same.

                        I think it's likely that her group is more akin to a Mafia or Yakuza sort of deal - extorting tribute from nearby villages with threats of violence, and taking valuable prisoners for ransom when they have the opportunity, but also providing a degree of order and protection from stuff like Grimm or from the "legitimate" government. I don't think they just recklessly attack villages and leave them to burn. I don't think they even ignore threats against local villages (if only because it's bad for business.)

                        Keep in mind, that "legitimate" government is not actually squeaky-clean itself - and, for the record, doesn't seem to be democratically elected. If you asked her, Raven would probably tell you that the Academy is just a bigger bandit group with better PR. Obviously the academies are generally better (well, uh, when they're not controlled by Salem from behind the scenes, which the local one is), but something like eg. Schnee Dust Company? I'm not so sure.

                        Like seriously, step back a moment and ask where the Academy system gets its legitimacy. Who the hell is paying for all those fancy structures and Atlas military machines and the like?

                        Raven is absolutely a force for ill. She's a thief, a murderer, a Grimm-enabler, a kidnapper, and a human trafficker. Raven hits teenage girls who have just been through a shipwreck in the head and then ties them up and puts them in cages until she can extort a big pile of lien from their kin.
                        Winter in particular is / was the heir of the Schnee Dust Company, which (I think) regularly kidnaps people and uses them as slave labor. And Raven isn't going to know that Winter has her doubts about that (for what that's worth, which, on its own, is almost nothing.) I think it's pretty reasonable for her to say "fuck those guys, I'm bleeding them for what they're worth."

                        I don't mean to completely justify what Raven is doing; I definitely don't agree with her philosophy, and I agree that it's mostly just self-justification. But we haven't actually seen evidence that she's doing most of the worst stuff you're assuming, and the plot arc seems to be leading towards a big reveal where she explains what made her lose faith in the current system.
                        Last edited by Aquillion; 11-08-2017, 06:16 PM.

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                        • There is a saying, " Don't shit where you eat".

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                          • Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
                            We haven't actually seen her bandit group in action.
                            No, just the consequences of their being in action.

                            I don't think they just recklessly attack villages and leave them to burn.
                            That is precisely what they do. We see the aftermath of just such an attack onscreen: Shion Village. Let's go to the tape, and get the testimony of the dying Huntsman from Volume 4, Chapter 2:

                            JAUNE: What happened? Who killed all of these people?

                            HUNTSMAN: Bandits... the whole tribe...
                            But hey, maybe that wasn't Raven's tribe specifically that killed all those people and torched the town and left the survivors to be eaten by the Grimm... oh wait, she totally admits it was them. From Volume 4, Chapter 4:

                            RAVEN: As leader, I will do everything in my power to ensure our survival!

                            QROW: I saw. The people of Shion saw too.

                            RAVEN: The weak die, the strong live. Those are the rules.
                            Yeeeeeah. You're a real statesman there, Raven.

                            Keep in mind, that "legitimate" government is not actually squeaky-clean itself
                            This in no way exculpates Raven and her band of, as her brother said, "killers and thieves."

                            - and, for the record, doesn't seem to be democratically elected.
                            We don't know about the status or health of representative government in the Kingdoms, with the exception of Atlas being viewed as dangerously authoritarian. The second World of Remnant for Volume 2 states that the kingdoms are rules by councils who "represent the people and their needs." This implies a form of representative government, especially since we also know from the WoR's from volumes three and four that the Vytal Treaty instituted widespread legal and governmental reform across Remnant and that during the Great War period and before, there was meaningful autocratic control in the form of actual kings.

                            The government of Mistral might or might not be democratically elected.

                            If you asked her, Raven would probably tell you that the Academy is just a bigger bandit group with better PR.
                            And she would deserve the same response to this that those who claim taxation is a form of theft do: scorching, withering contempt. And, again, even if this were true, it would in no way exculpate Raven from descending on towns, murdering a shit-ton of people, and then leaving the survivors to get fucked up by a Nucklavee.

                            Like seriously, step back a moment and ask where the Academy system gets its legitimacy. Who the hell is paying for all those fancy structures and Atlas military machines and the like?
                            The Academies are government-financed, we do know that much.

                            Winter in particular
                            Weiss.

                            is / was the heir of the Schnee Dust Company, which (I think) regularly kidnaps people and uses them as slave labor.
                            Er.

                            If this happens, we've seen no textual evidence of it.

                            I mean. I wouldn't put it past Jacques. But man alive, if the SDC were kidnapping people enslaving them on the regular, you'd think Qrow would've mentioned it during the WoR episode devoted to them. They may have forms of deeply scummy business practices like debt peonage ("sold my soul to the company store") but if they're out-and-out slavers it isn't really mentioned anywhere.

                            I think it's pretty reasonable for her to say "fuck those guys, I'm bleeding them for what they're worth."
                            It is not reasonable, when coming upon an injured teenage girl who has just been thrown clear of an explosive shipwreck she was lucky to live through, to declare how lucky you just got and then strike her brutally in the head.

                            But we haven't actually seen evidence that she's doing most of the worst stuff you're assuming,
                            I have provided copious amounts of it!

                            and the plot arc seems to be leading towards a big reveal where she explains what made her lose faith in the current system.
                            With this, I agree.


                            "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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                            • From a practical standpoint it doesn't matter if the kingdoms are literally Hitler, humanity cannot survive, cannot escape, and cannot advance under Raven's philosophy. The system could be run by guys that make the pre-revolution french aristocracy look good, and they would still be better than Raven.

                              She is basically fanon Sophia Hess.

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                              • I imagine that before Raven stepped outside, she was freaking out in her tent.

                                "Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, she found me. How did she find me? Oh shit, now the tribe is going to know I abandoned my own daughter. Now she's going to ask me questions. What do I do?

                                "Okay, run damage control; put on a production! She wants answers; I can bullshit something. I can distract the tribe; draw attention away from 'why have we never heard about her' by making them see Yang as someone who proved her worth and ambition in coming here. Maybe if I flatter her enough, and bullshit her answers good enough, she might even join us! If she becomes part of our family on her own, no one can say I'm a terrible mother!"


                                Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                                My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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