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From The Crucible: Crafting As A Struggle [PEACH]

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
    What's wrong with lesser projects gating greater ones? I understood that to represent big projects being made up of smaller ones; i.e. you don't just "build a skyship," you have to lay the keel, build the hull, sew the sails, craft the fittings, etc.
    So, the underlying idea behind the tiers of project is a really good one. CraftMan spends time "on camera" making swords, huts, improvised explosive devices, armored carts, the works, gaining craft XP as he does so. This both narratively establishes CraftMan as "Guy who makes things" and, more importantly, it incentivizes players to make things as a solution to problems instead of just "Take Craft to turn charm picks into artifacts". Then CraftMan disappears into his KlaveCave and cashes in these craft XP to make a fancy artifact off camera.
    The breakdown comes in the execution. Basic and Legendary projects shouldn't exist. Basic projects give rewards per completion and are so trivial that CraftMan is incentivized to say nonsense like "Before bed tonight, I carve an arrow, forge a nail, draw a doodle, embroider my initials on the Dawn's handkerchief, and cook dinner. That's five basic projects and [DICE NOISES] loads of successes on all of them so I get 45 silver points total.". They're a meaningless speedbump on the way to Major projects, which is where the more meaningful activity occurs. And Legendary projects are just invitations for players to demand their GM homebrew a N/A artifact to their specification, which there's zero guidance on how to do beyond "earth-shaking potency".

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    • #17
      Originally posted by vwllss trnt prncss View Post
      And Legendary projects are just invitations for players to demand their GM homebrew a N/A artifact to their specification, which there's zero guidance on how to do beyond "earth-shaking potency".
      I will disagree here. The players are the ones that should be providing the concept and inspiration for their earth-shaking artifacts. When it comes to mechanical effects, sure the Storyteller needs to put a few things together, but shouldn't need more than one or two at a time.



      Dead But Not Gone: Ghosts
      Ghosts: A Revision (2nd Edition)
      Masters of the Industrial Elements
      Upon the Rock of Tradition: The Memorial Exalted
      ​From The Crucible: Crafting As A Struggle

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post

        Developers clarified that the whole ship was one project, not something that was intended to be broken down into sub projects.
        I think this is one time when it's beneficial to the game to ignore the developers.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post

          I think this is one time when it's beneficial to the game to ignore the developers.
          I don't disagree (or like this homebrew system, sorry) -- but that's also not what the book says.

          Look at the examples of projects at each level: none of them are components for a bigger project, they're all self-contained, individual things. @vwllss trnt prncss has the right of it vis how it's supposed to work, and what I think the sticking points are.

          Plus, how do you achieve basic objectives? "I made the hilt of a sword... love me!"


          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
            (or like this homebrew system, sorry)
            Not a problem. Is it just the idea in general or is it some details?



            Dead But Not Gone: Ghosts
            Ghosts: A Revision (2nd Edition)
            Masters of the Industrial Elements
            Upon the Rock of Tradition: The Memorial Exalted
            ​From The Crucible: Crafting As A Struggle

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post

              Not a problem. Is it just the idea in general or is it some details?
              I see what you're trying to do, and I think it's good in principle... but I'm not playing a Solar game and this doesn't fix what I perceive to be the problem with Craft.

              Your rules for making artifacts are all over the place. If I want to make a magic amulet, I need a Strength of 3+ and to succeed in an opposed Stamina roll?

              I just want to make cool stuff and not detract from the rest of the game. I don't see how making Artifact Creation Mulitple Attribute Dependent does that.

              It's definitely well thought through, and I applaud your efforts.


              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                I see what you're trying to do, and I think it's good in principle... but I'm not playing a Solar game and this doesn't fix what I perceive to be the problem with Craft.
                What do you see as the problem with Craft?

                Your rules for making artifacts are all over the place. If I want to make a magic amulet, I need a Strength of 3+ and to succeed in an opposed Stamina roll?
                You don't strictly need anything except Craft at 3 dots. The rest are there to bring the importance of Lore and Occult in artifact creation back in after they were removed from the absolute requirements and to also provide tactical options for the project and anchoring points for Charms and powers.

                I just want to make cool stuff and not detract from the rest of the game. I don't see how making Artifact Creation Mulitple Attribute Dependent does that.
                The default crafting rules put a number of mandatory trait minimums that you must meet before you can start in your way, then the process amounts to rolling a single, massively inflated dice pool over and over against a static difficulty. There's no acceptable failure state, no possibility for being weak in one area while strong in another, and no decision making.

                Acceptable failure states without the possibility of failure are pointless, so the investment cost of being able to roll the same huge amount of dice every time had to go up. The system already has a built-in way to diversify dice pools and that's different Attribute + Ability rolls, thus the different Milestones. Does that make sense?

                It's definitely well thought through, and I applaud your efforts.
                Thanks.



                Dead But Not Gone: Ghosts
                Ghosts: A Revision (2nd Edition)
                Masters of the Industrial Elements
                Upon the Rock of Tradition: The Memorial Exalted
                ​From The Crucible: Crafting As A Struggle

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  Look at the examples of projects at each level: none of them are components for a bigger project, they're all self-contained, individual things.
                  Nnnno? They're not. Expanding on the skyship example: forging basic tools (a Basic project) is a prerequisite for manufacturing the ship's hull plates, fittings, and so forth, ("forging battle-ready arms and armor," a Major project), which is a prerequisite for "building a warship" (a Superior project). IMO, bigger projects being built of smaller projects is the logical scaffolding that holds the entire Craft system together. Take it away, and no part of the system makes sense. What does crafting XP represent, if not putting small things together to make bigger things?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post

                    Nnnno? They're not. Expanding on the skyship example: forging basic tools (a Basic project) is a prerequisite for manufacturing the ship's hull plates, fittings, and so forth, ("forging battle-ready arms and armor," a Major project), which is a prerequisite for "building a warship" (a Superior project). IMO, bigger projects being built of smaller projects is the logical scaffolding that holds the entire Craft system together. Take it away, and no part of the system makes sense. What does crafting XP represent, if not putting small things together to make bigger things?
                    What small things do you put together to make a Daiklave, or a Wonderous Globe of Precious Stability? Or for that matter, what if you're part way through making your warship using the gxp you got from making warship armor when you realize that you absolutely need a Collar of Dawn's Cleansing Light and you need to start now? Do your gxp suddenly vanish?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post

                      Nnnno? They're not. [...] What does crafting XP represent, if not putting small things together to make bigger things?
                      Look at how you earn Crafting XP.

                      Craft XP represents narrative momentum. Establishing your skill as a Crafter in the story.

                      You can homebrew this however you want. Just own your homebrew.


                      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by vwllss trnt prncss View Post

                        What small things do you put together to make a Daiklave,
                        The hilt and blade, perhaps?
                        or a Wonderous Globe of Precious Stability?
                        Tell me what it is, first.
                        Or for that matter, what if you're part way through making your warship using the gxp you got from making warship armor when you realize that you absolutely need a Collar of Dawn's Cleansing Light and you need to start now? Do your gxp suddenly vanish?
                        If you cut off part of the armor to make the collar, you can use the gxp from the warship project; otherwise, it's unavailable.


                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                        You can homebrew this however you want. Just own your homebrew.
                        Sure, if you want to expand the definition of homebrew to include "perfectly valid interpretations of ambiguous rules."

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
                          The hilt and blade, perhaps?
                          Great. that's two Major projects. That's enough gxp for one roll of my Superior project, where do I get the gxp needed for the rest of the rolls?
                          And where did I get the sxp for those two Major projects anyways? I'd need three Minor projects for those two Major projects.
                          And hell, that assumes I can cause people to gain an Intimacy every time I make a sword-bit, how the heck am I doing that?

                          Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
                          Tell me what it is, first.
                          It's an artifact in the corebook, you're perfectly capable of looking things up.

                          Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
                          If you cut off part of the armor to make the collar, you can use the gxp from the warship project; otherwise, it's unavailable.
                          Sure, if you want to expand the definition of homebrew to include "perfectly valid interpretations of ambiguous rules."
                          Your homebrew is homebrew. It's not any lesser for being such, but don't peddle your houserules as RAW when they're clearly not.

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                          • #28
                            For what it matters, when Holden was still dev he said that you explicitly cannot use consistent projects to farm craft xp for bigger ones.

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