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  • Hark
    replied
    If any exalt should be a master of artifacts to equal Solars I feel it would be Alchemicals. At the very least I would have them Resonant with the material matching their caste and have charms that give them resonance with the other materials.

    Alchemicals does bring up an interesting point. I'm really surprised that Adamant wasn't added as one of the core Magic Materials in 3e, even come up in discussion In Arms.

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  • armyofwhispers
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Since Alchemicals are the only Exalted in Autochthonia, that hardly matters to them.

    In any case, I wasn’t arguing that Alchemicals be dissonant with all Artifacts, or even universally neutral.

    I was only arguing that they would still make sense even if they weren’t Resonant with any Artifacts.
    My comment was actually directly at Isator Levi's comments on how dissonance isn't 'being bad with evocations'. You posted while I was composing my reply.

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  • Solar
    replied
    I'd make it so that Alchemicals are dissonant and resonant with materials based on what charms they have at any time, for sure

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post
    I dunno, dissonance is a pretty big handicap in a lot of circumstances. If nothing else it provides a negative incentive for certain exalt types that makes taking artifacts made out of natively resonant stuff easier/better cost benefit ratio.
    Since Alchemicals are the only Exalted in Autochthonia, that hardly matters to them.

    In any case, I wasn’t arguing that Alchemicals be dissonant with all Artifacts, or even universally neutral.

    I was only arguing that they would still make sense even if they weren’t Resonant with any Artifacts.




    the way we handled resonances was we gave each caste a resonance with their own MM and are neutral to other MM.
    One wonders how much Jade counts as five different types as opposed to one. Maybe a Jade Caste is more strongly comprised of one form of jade than others?


    We went the route of Alchemicals having higher affinity with the MM but at a price: You could buy and install charms that upgraded your resonance with other MM.
    The new form of Material Synthesis Wave Emitter.


    Either way, I think that Alchemicals alone it makes sense that it's a caste-specific resonance/dissonance scenario rather than something where the entire splat is resonant/neutral/dissonant with all of them.
    I agree that it wouldn’t make sense with anyone else since it wasn’t done with the Dragon-Blooded.

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  • armyofwhispers
    replied
    We've seen alchemical charms integrating artifacts into their bodies before. Interfacing and powering them up could definitely be one step further.

    Oh I also just remembered that there's another way to create the interchangeable artifacts scenario: Charm that has a pool of xp that can be committed to any attuned artifacts to unlock evocations. Probably only applicable to evocations that can be purchased with xp in the first place and less efficient than actually just buying them with xp, but could allow you to go from artifact to artifact. Downside to this is it severely reduces the metaphysical nature of the bond between exalt and artifact.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Maybe alchemicals could go in a different direction for their powerful effects. They only get neutral affinity with their caste material and dissonance with everything else, but Autochthonian artifacts have their most powerful effects gated behind physically interfacing with the alchemical's body or charms, and these "jack in" powers would be independent of resonance, meaning they were available to all alchemicals equally. Or maybe in some cases they would amplify resonance to encourage material matching or something.

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  • armyofwhispers
    replied
    I dunno, dissonance is a pretty big handicap in a lot of circumstances. If nothing else it provides a negative incentive for certain exalt types that makes taking artifacts made out of natively resonant stuff easier/better cost benefit ratio.

    For what it's worth, my ST and I took a shot at homebrewing Alchemicals for our current game. They weren't meant to be PCs so we never did playtest them, but the way we handled resonances was we gave each caste a resonance with their own MM and are neutral to other MM. We went the route of Alchemicals having higher affinity with the MM but at a price: You could buy and install charms that upgraded your resonance with other MM.

    If you wanted to give incentives for having Alchemical characters utilizing artifacts made out of the same stuff they are, you could leave it at the level of resonating with your native material and either neutral or dissonant with the others, or if you wanted to really reduce their aptitude with artifacts and downplay any bonds with artifacts you could go neutral with caste material and dissonant with other MM.

    Either way, I think that Alchemicals alone it makes sense that it's a caste-specific resonance/dissonance scenario rather than something where the entire splat is resonant/neutral/dissonant with all of them.

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Alchemicals are designed to integrate Artifacts into their bodies. These are Alchemical Charms.

    They may not be so good at working with Artifacts which are NOT part of their bodies. This would not be a contradiction.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    So, Alchemicals using Artifacts.

    ​I can't say what the intention for the future is, but I personally don't see them being partially composed of the magical materials as necessarily a basis for having a special resonance with them. That's not me saying that it specifically means they shouldn't, just that I would see no contradiction if they didn't. It's presented as a primarily spiritual bond, so the material in common doesn't really make it definitive for me. I would find a stronger argument in the idea of the spiritual elements of an Alchemical arising from the material that they're made from being the basis of forming that bond, although even then not entirely, as I find the Alchemical Castes slightly distinct from the usual magical material associations or affiliated Exalted, especially regarding the Jade and Soulsteel Castes.

    ​If one was to go with an idea that Alchemicals don't have special facility with Artifacts, I could even see ways of using being composed of magical materials as a basis for that; maybe some idea that being composed like that makes them similar enough to Artifacts themselves that actual Artifacts don't quite respond to them.

    ​Mind, resonance and dissonance could also be incorporated some way into their Charms, in which case it wouldn't so much be a case of being bad with Artifacts as it would be expressing it in a different manner.

    ​Plus, I have a fondness of the implications that the Artifact of a Champion is on loan from the state, and if it came to a choice between that and rightful possession of the thing enough to develop Evocations, I would choose the former.

    I'll note that phrasing it all in terms of Alchemicals "sucking" at Evocations is overstating it a tad; even Dissonance doesn't constitute being bad with Evocations, just a limit on being able to get the most out of them.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Now that we've got more examples of it, there's an implication of Artifact temperament and legend that I would be interested in running with, regarding differences in their power across the Ages.

    ​Previously, I always found something a bit tricky about differences of power between First and Second Age; it felt to me as though the First Age should have had things that were in some way superior to the products of the Second (particularly the latter half) without it solely being a matter of Artifact level. It could get a bit of that out of the sense of "there were ways to make this thing in abundance, where now it takes a dedicated crafter months at least", but that wouldn't work for everything (especially the likes of daiklaves). Similarly, it's not a difference that Craft (Magitech) was well-suited to resolving, and particularly not when Craft (First Age Artifice) defines itself primarily by things that would significantly alter the setting aesthetic; a daiklave in principle won't do that, but it feels as though there should be daiklaves that they made in the First Age that you wouldn't really find later on.

    ​So, as an example, Beloved Adorei; a daiklave that Arms specifically called out as actually alive and intelligent. On top of that, some of its Evocations are distinctly powerful, even if they come with some appropriate conditions. Yet, it remains a 3-dot daiklave. Is this the kind of thing that could be readily made through much of the Age of Sorrows?

    ​Leaving aside the question of whether anybody would have the facility for crafting orichalcum besides the Solars; the subject of how magical material resonance plays into crafting hasn't really been brought up, because the craft system is a lot more abstract than that, so I would assume for the time being that just about anybody can make an Artifact from anything (also leaving aside Immaculate reservations about that material).

    ​I propose that you couldn't readily make a Beloved Adorai in the Second Age; that there's something in the tools, the knowledge, and the ingredients that is missing such that one generally can't make a 3-dot daiklave of that capability and power. Possibly also because of differences in the culture and the personalities; the Age of Sorrows still has larger-than-life people, but maybe not quite as large as the Solar that Adorei was made for (or even the one who made it). You still make something that is recognisably 3 dots, because that comes through mostly in the form and arrangement of the Evocations, but maybe not quite as powerful.

    ​In contrast, I would look at something like Spring Razor, an Artifact of the same level made in the time of the Realm. I would describe that as being a bit more simple; its legend more straightforward, its Evocations a bit less nuanced. It has personality, but its personality is more direct; elegance, and poisoning people. Not exactly inferior as a weapon, but less elaborate.

    ​Then there's something like Sozen, with something around how its power is built around having created a false demon identity to slip into. I find that to be an example of an Artifact that is not only powerful, but legitimately mysterious; it, or the manner in which it was made, entailing a power that is not readily apparent to me. I can work with that to imagine ancient Artifacts whose workings entail knowledge that is lost, at least to the extent of somebody looking at it and having no idea of the process by which it was managed. For example, maybe it was based on some kind of foundation of sorcery, or social influence, things that a crafter in the Time of Tumult might be familiar with and even capable of, just not able to readily see underlying this suit of armour based on assuming the persona of a devil.

    ​While it's not strictly a subject of power, I do find this to be a perspective that does have an interaction with the 5-dot Artifacts, if only because I think we've only got two examples of those that weren't made in the First Age (one of which was a warstrider, benefiting both from being a thing of moving parts and described as cobbled together from scraps, the other being both from the very early Shogunate and with the aid of a Sidereal). The difficulty of making such powerful Artifacts is one that is built right into the system, but I do wonder if the characterisation could go a bit further; that these are ones that actually do require some kind of mystery behind them. The two in the core might be a bit borderline; arguably, things such as powering an Artifact with a hundred souls, or a dedicated volcanic manse is merely resource intensive, rather than dependent on lost occult knowledge, so something like them might be able to function as the Spring Razor to other 5 dots' Beloved Adorei. But when you've got things as uncanny as the Forgotten Blade, Gorgon and Stormcaller, I can see somebody looking at the thing and not only thinking it would be difficult, but hardly knowing where to begin.

    ​I've had ideas like this before, even if the system didn't really provide a hook to express them. I know they're not for everybody, with some people being repelled by the idea that the game could present something with a declaration that it's cooler than their character could make. They might not even be the intention of the writers. In any case, it's good for them not to be set in stone, so it shouldn't push people away.

    ​But it's there enough for me to see it and take ideas from it, and I'm glad enough for that. It fulfils a notion I've spun for some time to my satisfaction.

    ​And to be clear, it's not the kind of thing where I would even say making a new example of it is impossible; just that it might demand a bit more from the preamble, that the legend of your making something that could have powers like Sozen might entail solving the mystery of Sozen. After all, the powers of a new Artifact are already up in the air, and supposed to depend a bit on the story of how it was made, and not just fulfilling the mechanical requirements and laying down an outline of desired Evocations.

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  • Cheshire Cat
    replied
    Finally bought the book today. How come Exalted can't seem to get decent art? It's got less totally appaling pieces than the core, but the quality of the art overall is not what I would expect from a professionally done book.

    A shame, since in all other regards, my first impression is that this is a very, very good book. Minton and Vance seem to know their stuff indeed.
    But dear lord, why pay artists who understand neither perspective, nor anatomy? I know there's people in the world who can draw faces, why have none of them been hired?

    Leave a comment:


  • danelsan
    replied
    I'd suggest using Golems or relatively simple (non-First Age Artifice) Automata of appropriate size, instead of creating "Mookstriders". Brass Legionnaires can apparently be created in batches with appropriate infrastructure, so it might be feasible for larger automata as well, by using even more resources and support structure. The minions being computer-piloted is a thing occasionally in Gundam, right?

    If you feel you must have some sort of lesser Warstriders instead of other options, however, Make them Artifact 4-5 Non-First Age Artifice things that can be produced in batches like Brass Legionnaires, don't give them Evocations, and possibly make them attunable by mortals at the cost of much of their life, Gunzosha style.
    I'd say these should be less powerful than even the basic Warstrider Chassis - say a baseline of Soak 13, reduce Health levels by one or two of each type, Strength caps at 5 or 6 (and up to about 10 or 12 for Feats of Strength), give them no mobility bonus, or even a penalty for heavier models, remove the ability to use Devastating actions, or restrict it in some way (using it gives you onslaught-like penalty, or costs Willpower, or consumes your movement action, or can only be used once per scene - possibly with a reset condition, or whatever other cost or restriction you deem appropriate). Possibly ease up on some of the weaknesses if the thing is attuned to an Essence User

    Observe that, even considering non-FAA automata or lesser Warstriders, even the Realm could not field Gundam-like numbers of them as mooks in the standard setting of the Age of Sorrows. If you want a gundam-like game you are gonna have to adjust the setting accordingly.

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  • Hark
    replied
    The setting has in the past supported 'minion' warstriders, and can do it again just fine. To produce minion warstriders you do it the same way you do minion everything else, stick it in a battlegroup. Battlegroup are super flexible like that.

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  • Solar
    replied
    I'd probably say that if you want to use Ex3's Warstrider rules for that sort of thing then go for it, but I wouldn't use the setting, because the setting in no way supports minion Warstriders. Like you're looking at a battle with one on each side being crazy rare.

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  • Leetsepeak
    replied
    It is definitely not the interest of Exalted 3e by default to have minion warstriders.

    If you want to put them in, I’d just make them without evocations. It’s... kind of bland, but hey, if you want minion striders, that’s kind of the result of that.

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