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Lunar martial artists just got a lot more interesting to me

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Was Dagger Wing Style something that humans needed actual, functional wings for, or could they use it with the assistance of props that approximated wings?
    Dagger Wind Style prequired flight capable wings and two dots in Athletics. (Debris of Fallen Races page 9)

    It does not explicitly mention whether or not ​Artefact wings would suffice, though...
    Last edited by Greyman; 01-05-2018, 10:48 AM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
      ​Deadly Beastman Transformation has historically had an issue in which the benefits it provides and the minor investment it is to take it makes it kind of mandatory as a thing for Lunars to have and for them to conduct combat in. Both prior and current development teams have expressed views to the effect of this being undesirable.

      ​It also has the advantage in which its concept of transforming into a synthesis of beast and human can naturally convey a basis for its own limitations, such as the idea that the shift in mindset is incompatible with things such as refined fighting styles.
      I counter that if, for example, a Lunar Moonsilver swordsman wants to be a master of his weapon-craft and it's myriad Evocations, then he'd possibly think twice about DBT.

      For the Lunar Martial Artist, the lack of all Mastery effects, as things currently stand, kind of make them not quite as good at it as the Solars or Sidereals (though the free-form native charm combining might prove me a liar there). DBT does give them a brawny edge, but is it better than Mastery effects? I can't say.

      But I do see your point/worry. I for one would also like for there to be options, but, as I'm sure you wish as well, I also want DBT to be awesome.

      Maybe it'll be like so:

      Human - Best at evocations (possibly sorcery?)
      Animal - Easiest access to Legendary size, tiny merits. Versatility through shifting into different shapes.
      DBT- The form you take when you want to rip something apart with your bare hands (whether via native dex/str charms or Martial arts).

      Naive perhaps, but you gotta start somewhere.

      prototype00

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      • #63
        So one thing we know is that there is no more wyld taint. However, I believe we still have Ma-Ha-Suchi in his full wolf-goat-human glory. This will be achieved via lunar charms by choice this time around.

        What if this gives some kind of material benefit when combined with appropriate styles? Perhaps Ma-Ha-Suchi chooses to be a goat-wolf-man because he's a master of Goat-style and wolf-style(note: afaik these styles do not currently exist) and really likes the combination of those styles with each other and his lunar charms?

        Perhaps not up to the level of unlocking mastery effects for a limited number of styles but there could be potential there as well. This is all pure speculation on my part of course other than the first paragraph.


        Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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        • #64
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post


          I really want them to have some kind of natural benefit with Animal styles over other styles, but I can't really see a way to balance it well.

          My ideal would be to say they Favour animal styles but not other styles. But I'm not sure people would like that.
          ​I feel as though this touches on a similar issue to the idea of a Martial Art that requires you to have some exclusive anatomical features, in that it grates a bit against the variety in Styles that is part of their appeal.

          ​As a basic example, White Reaper Style has always had an association with Lunars, initially by it being the signature of Lilith, and then by Second Edition actually giving it a write-up in Glories: Luna with a backstory of being invented by a Lunar. Even in an Edition where such a backstory no longer strictly applies, in its imagery and its concept, there is a fairly strong resonance with Lunars there, and I think that to come out with an idea that the association is strictly inferior to an animal Style would hurt that.

          ​Indeed, while I advocate for the significance of animals to Lunars, I think there are problems with leaning too heavily on that, and I think that making them strictly superior at those Martial Arts would be a good example of that.

          ​I think it would be a better idea for their association with Martial Arts to be consistent across the board, and that it's enough of a contrast to Solar and Sidereal Mastery for them to be able to combine the Styles with their own powers.

          ​After all, I presume that's not just things like Strength and Dexterity; it might be that you get some potent effects from adding Lunar Manipulation and Appearance to Black Claw Style (another one that I think has some stylistic resonance with Lunars in its own right).

          Originally posted by prototype00
          want DBT to be awesome
          ​Certainly I'm not saying that it should be bad, just that it would need something to prevent it from being uniform for Lunars.

          ​Honesty, even the idea of it lowering their affinity for Magical Materials... that's not nothing, but I don't think it's huge either. Resonance and Dissonance are a nice way of ultimately representing different affinities for the Magical Materials, but per existing examples the differences are not very major, at least to my eyes. There are still plenty of Artifacts where even being Dissonant with it will allow you to wield some fairly potent effects.

          Originally posted by armyofwhispers
          Perhaps Ma-Ha-Suchi chooses to be a goat-wolf-man because he's a master of Goat-style and wolf-style(note: afaik these styles do not currently exist) and really likes the combination of those styles with each other and his lunar charms?
          ​I think there was some talk a while back of there being some particular powers or benefits distinct to chimeras? I definitely don't think that the process or decision should hinge on a desire for certain Martial Arts mastery.


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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          • #65
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            ​I think there was some talk a while back of there being some particular powers or benefits distinct to chimeras? I definitely don't think that the process or decision should hinge on a desire for certain Martial Arts mastery.
            I'm not married to the idea either, but figured it would be a way to explain why some choose the chimera route.


            Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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            • #66
              We know chimerism is a charm. They have distinct powers called "Charms with that charm as a prerequisite".

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                ​But Lunars don't have Brawl Charms, and going by the premise of this thread, it doesn't even seem as though they would have combat Attribute Charms tied exclusively to Brawl either.
                Doi. Had a brain fart and temporarily forgot that for a second.


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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                  We know chimerism is a charm. They have distinct powers called "Charms with that charm as a prerequisite".
                  This is another thing I think people are forgetting. Lunars have charms. In fact that's the entire point of this thread is Lunars can combo native charms with martial arts. Which is huge.

                  If done poorly, every lunar is better if they grab the martial artist merit. I don't want that. I don't want to make a lunar character and feel like I MUST take martial arts to be awesome. I want to be able to take martial arts because I think that's cool.

                  I have the same stance with DBT. I don't want DBT to be the absolute Lunar combat strategy like it was in 2e.

                  I want is Lunars to have multiple flashy awesome ways to get into a fight. Whether that's with awesome artifacts, awesome martial arts, awesome unions of beast and man or my biggest concern: awesome native charms.

                  My whole "weaker martial arts in DBT" idea had a second half to it: stronger native charms in DBT. The basis I had was simple: how do you encourage Lunars to not 100% without fail jump on martial arts as hard as a Siderial with a closed charmset?

                  I don't want Lunars to suck at martial arts. I don't want martial arts to be a 100% straight upgrade on being lunar. I want there to be at least a choice in the manner.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ScarecrowJ View Post
                    If done poorly, every lunar is better if they grab the martial artist merit.
                    By the same logic, every Lunar is better if they have an artifact and invest in Evocations, and every Lunar is better if they become a sorceror and invest in spells and workings.

                    Martial Arts, Evocations, and Sorcery compete for Lunar XP.


                    I have the same stance with DBT. I don't want DBT to be the absolute Lunar combat strategy like it was in 2e.
                    This, I agree with.

                    DBT is cool, and I want to play a character that uses it.

                    But I also want to play a character that fights with dozens of animal forms in a single battle, like Beastboy.

                    Or I want to have a dragon for a spirit shape and burninate the countryside and peasants without bothering with DBT (except when I'm trapped in close quarters).


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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                      By the same logic, every Lunar is better if they have an artifact and invest in Evocations, and every Lunar is better if they become a sorceror and invest in spells and workings.

                      Martial Arts, Evocations, and Sorcery compete for Lunar XP.



                      This, I agree with.

                      DBT is cool, and I want to play a character that uses it.

                      But I also want to play a character that fights with dozens of animal forms in a single battle, like Beastboy.

                      Or I want to have a dragon for a spirit shape and burninate the countryside and peasants without bothering with DBT (except when I'm trapped in close quarters).
                      The difference between Evocations, martial arts and sorcery for most exalted is that Evocations are mostly designed to supplement the native capabilities of the exalt in question. Sorcery is usually its own thing with (apparently) native charms supplementing the methods of using sorcery.

                      Martial arts for most Exalts is designed to be its own ability and to not have to combo with native exalt powers (Excellencies excluded). They tend to have a strong central mechanical and stylistic thesis that informs how they work. They tend to be their own workhorses that have a bit more kick to them.

                      The main point is that they mostly are designed in mind that they won't be combining with native charms.... Okay... That's presumptuous of me to say I can speak on design intent with authority. They SEEM to be designed with the idea that they don't get to work with melee, brawl, archery or thrown charms.

                      I am worried that because Attribute charms can supplement Martial Arts charms that problems arise. My biggest worry is that attribute charmsets end up with holes in them because they have to be designed to work with martial arts.

                      Iunno, I'm mostly spitballing concerns and possible solutions because I over think everything.

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                      • #71
                        I, for one, want DBT to be an absolute or near-absolute combat strategy for Lunars.

                        But I want that absolute to be a build-a-beast of customizable options and paths up a tree of additional options. Perhaps even a significant chunk of character-creation resting in the definition of spirit beast and DBT.

                        I think I'd be enthused if the old RLF was subsumed into this part as well - maybe your transformation was more mental or spiritual than physical; more attitude than muscle.



                        Unrelated to DBT but related to Lunars and Martial Arts - would a MArt be useless if you turn into the creature that inspired the art, or one like it?

                        Can I fight in Crane Style if I'm a Crane? Can I fight in Snake Style if I'm a Snake? Can I fight in Single Point style if I'm a Swordfish?


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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Simon Darkstep View Post
                          Unrelated to DBT but related to Lunars and Martial Arts - would a MArt be useless if you turn into the creature that inspired the art, or one like it?

                          Can I fight in Crane Style if I'm a Crane? Can I fight in Snake Style if I'm a Snake? Can I fight in Single Point style if I'm a Swordfish?
                          The old dev team, at least, reacted negatively to this idea when it was raised. Lunars emulate the fundamental essence of snakes by turning into snakes; Snake Style is "what if we had a fighting style inspired by the movements of snakes," but is designed for humans to use (and it isn't exactly an omni-serpentine style; an anaconda's combat strategy is utterly foreign to Snake Style). For other animals it gets substantially goofier; what exactly does an actual crane have to do with Crane Style? Cranes hunt by spearing frogs with their beaks, not by hitting them so hard that they go home and rethink their lives.


                          Glorious Solar Kitten

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                          • #73
                            You might get away with tiger style as a tiger.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Aretii View Post

                              The old dev team, at least, reacted negatively to this idea when it was raised. Lunars emulate the fundamental essence of snakes by turning into snakes; Snake Style is "what if we had a fighting style inspired by the movements of snakes," but is designed for humans to use (and it isn't exactly an omni-serpentine style; an anaconda's combat strategy is utterly foreign to Snake Style). For other animals it gets substantially goofier; what exactly does an actual crane have to do with Crane Style? Cranes hunt by spearing frogs with their beaks, not by hitting them so hard that they go home and rethink their lives.
                              It would be interesting to find out how different storytellers and gaming groups would interpret the idea.

                              If it got a laugh and played up the drama, heck, I'd run with it. Single Point Swordfish is exactly the kind of stunt I'd concoct, just because the villains wouldn't see it coming or know how to react to it.


                              Check out Momentum Exalted!

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                              • #75
                                Overall I'm against such shenanigans. Martial Arts are very clearly designed as systems of battle for a type of being, that emulate traits from a theme.
                                A tiger stylist fighting a tiger is not a symmetrical fight in that sense, for example. So whoever is using a martial art kinda has to be of the proper shape to use it. A DBT lunar is fine if it remains largely humanoid.

                                Now you want to develop a martial art for an animal? We can have that. Imagine adapting White Reaper to a mantis' body. And teaching it to a godblooded praying mantis.
                                Last edited by Synapse; 01-09-2018, 09:45 AM.

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