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Can Solar be Final Boss?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by wastevens View Post

    I think that cognitive dissonance- the guy that shines gold, who gives every outward appearance of Being a Narratively Good Guy (tm), is also part of the point or story of Solar villains.
    ​Eh, I wouldn't really see that as cognitive dissonance, as I'm familiar with a few pieces of fiction in which being the idealised physical specimen with the casually authoritative attitude is itself the signified of villainy. I keep visualising somebody with a broad chest wearing a kind of toga and who never uncrosses his arms while people attack him.

    ​That being said, I feel as though Jen's statement about that image not really working for him warrants exploring other options.

    Although that raises a question:

    ​Jen, how would you feel about somebody whose physique follows the basic outline of conventional human, but is exaggerated to such an extreme as to convey a sense of overwhelming power and the implication of terrifying violence?

    ​I'm thinking somebody like Broly (for those unfamiliar, that's the one on the right).




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    • #17
      A Solar Final Boss depends on what sort of Supernal they are.
      If their a Melee fighter, their sprinting and soaring across the battlefield and shooting blasts of energy from their blazing golden blade. If their an archer, the sky is filled with arrows of blazing fire. And so on.
      Combine Athletics charms that make one solar an army and allow insane leaping attacks, Presence charms for terrifying away entire armies with mere presence and Enemy Castigating Judgement can mess some people up.
      And that's if their combat focused. An integrity or Presence or War supernal will have a glorious golden legion with them of Tiger Warriors.

      Evil Superman(or at least Superman when he's pissed and throwing down), Achilles in the Iliad on his Rampage, Karna in the Mahbratha(By reputation, haven't read that one) might be good references as well as most Sayian's ever. Marduk from MoonHunters is a solar with a warstrider who has some definite solar aesthetics as well. The God Emperor and Macharius(http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/M...el_of_Fire.jpg) from Warhammer 40k are also visual solars who are, frankly, awful awful people.


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      • #18
        Oh lord, I want an Exalted videogame so bad. Curse you and your fantastic art, Jen!

        Seriously though, Solars can go one-winged angel with the Brawl charm Ascendant Battle Visage. Several Melee charms and the Solar Circle Sorcery spell Death Ray lets Solars shoot frickin' laser beams, and Integrity's Inviolable Essence-Merging causes a Solar to merge with the Essence of the world, becoming invulnerable and granting profound insights as long as the Solar continues to meditate and take no direct action*. Solars can make for a fantastic boss fight.

        *After defeating Solar's minions: "Can you not see the impermanence of all things? What I do, I do for the good of all Creation. If you cannot understand this, than I will do what I must. Forgive me." - Rises up from invulnerable meditation, opens with Death Ray.*


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        • #19
          1) Solars and corrupted Solars, actually seem kind of best for "Final Boss" out of all Exalted, in the sense of being powerful enough to fight a circle and visually to have those thematics. Lots of the other Exalted are actually more humble guys in terms of power scale so don't do that easily... The power of high level evocations also is good for this visually?

          (Like maybe they're not as good at this as demons and ghosts and gods and behemoths and such. But it's not like other Exalted are really so much better at being this sort of character).

          2) If the big stopping point is giantness, then how verboten is a bit of sorcery (or even a custom Charm) to make a Solar all giant?

          (Slightly in context, this has made me consider, I'm not sure I see getting huge and swole as actually that much of a thing for Abyssals, Infernals or Lunars, as they evolve in power. I mean, even the Shintai Charms elements of becoming huge always seemed to be more of thing discussed in theory than actual mechanics that characters were set up to use, and even then it's only like "You're 12 foot tall".)

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          • #20
            Not sure about 3e Solars yet but 2e Solars were great at being Samuel Haight type monsters. Basically assholes who coverted the aesthetic and trappings of another splat type but openly thought themselves superior and in some cases actively hated the group they emulated.



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            • #21
              I mean, just to flesh out my opinion above a little, (in ways no one probably wants!) if we're talking specifically about "Behold my True Form!" style massive monster transformations into JRPG bosses, then, yeah, Infernals and Abyssals can go a *bit* further with picking up some of those visuals than Solars.

              But at the root, any Exalt splat is pretty suboptimal raw material for huge transformations that completely change their moveset into something that is not at all like human movements and attacks, and render most of their Charmset unusable. Just for the purely practical reasons and also because of theme (like the ex-dev John Morke said, the idea is all about playing heroes of sorts and not whatever huge monster). Practically it seems more useful to have Charms that are more, like flavoured "Super Saiyan mode" than "Behold my True Form! (If the distinction makes sense). Very high Essence Abyssal is still going to fight like some Gothic superwarrior, not matter how palpably vast and oppressive the presence of their essence becomes at bending the world toward oblivion.

              Non-Exalts (including strange things K'Tula type Exalted have turned themselves into), will be much better game for that kind of transformation vibe and at being a huge boss-monster.

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              • #22
                "Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."

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                • #23
                  The thing about the Solar final boss is that you can probably see them coming if they're not Socialize supernal...

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                    Infernals and Abyssals can go a *bit* further with picking up some of those visuals than Solars.
                    ​I'm pretty sure that Infernals will still have their shintais.

                    ​I don't think any attitude of the current developers contradicts the sample Infernal character who could turn into an eyeless dragon who hits enemies with bone-crushing sonic blasts.

                    ​Although I did cite the example of Ascendant Battle Visage, I also admittedly find myself unsure if it's the kind of thing that effectively crosses over into other combat Abilities, because I don't think the transformation archetype emerges quite as naturally from what things such as Thrown or Melee do, and would be personally averse to just having things that ape the Charm wholesale in other Abilities.

                    ​I would consider the possibilities of Abilities at a tangent to what might make the fight part of the boss fight. Resistance includes something like Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit, so something growing out of that to extend the archetype of the berserker might work; maybe extend something from Glorious Solar Plate into a sort of transformation into a golden god*. Integrity has a few possibilities, not least of which is Divine Mantle, in which one might emulate certain inhuman powers, but one way in which to spin them is unified in the aesthetics of a kind of solar god.

                    ​There might also be something useful that can be drawn out of Presence.

                    ​* That actually reminds me of one of your other pictures, Jen, in which that character used the Charm straight up to adopt an armour that was particularly fearsome looking. Considering that the armour is allowed to have Evocations, and the theme that those Evocations can follow can still be quite distinct from the Solar's own powers, that's one thing that's already naturally in the Solar Charm set that allows them to dramatically adopt an altered appearance with a suite of additional fight powers.


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                    • #25
                      If you want a specific example of a Solar boss battle design, sorcery is great. Solar sorcery is one of their trademarks and you can have bound demon minions, transformations like Invulnerable Skin of Bronze. and as mentioned previously, Death Ray.


                      But sexually.

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                      • #26
                        Solars have an incredible potential as final boss...the sky is the limit. Miracles of the Solar exalted just show a sample of the kind things, a solar can do. On top of it, solars can use all magical materials...so they can even expend their portofolio with unique evocations from other materials like soulsteel, starmetal etc...with their artifact of choice. Even better that in third edition, magical material doesn't mean that your artifact is weaker than another one.

                        In general I would say, that Saint Seiya could give a good amount of inspiration for a final solar boss:




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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                          Gilgamesh.
                          The character from Fate/Stay Night? Arrogant and decking in gold are stereotypical Solar traits, but I don't think "Having lots of Artifacts" has ever been something Solar is known for.

                          Though with them being Resonance with every MM it does provide an incentive to collect lots of Artifact, however there is no way to go Gilgamesh since learning Evocations takes lots of effort, not to mention that attunement drain your motepool.

                          And if you are just attacking with a bunch of Artifact weapons that has no Evocations then every splats can do that.

                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Jen, how would you feel about somebody whose physique follows the basic outline of conventional human, but is exaggerated to such an extreme as to convey a sense of overwhelming power and the implication of terrifying violence?

                          I'm thinking somebody like Broly (for those unfamiliar, that's the one on the right).
                          Weeeell, I'm Jen so such characters would actually make me want to date them instead of running in terror

                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          * That actually reminds me of one of your other pictures, Jen, in which that character used the Charm straight up to adopt an armour that was particularly fearsome looking. Considering that the armour is allowed to have Evocations, and the theme that those Evocations can follow can still be quite distinct from the Solar's own powers, that's one thing that's already naturally in the Solar Charm set that allows them to dramatically adopt an altered appearance with a suite of additional fight powers.
                          Oh yeah, armor tends to has body-enhancing Evocations like turning into an Elemental Dragon.

                          Originally posted by Ellis View Post
                          If you want a specific example of a Solar boss battle design, sorcery is great. Solar sorcery is one of their trademarks and you can have bound demon minions, transformations like Invulnerable Skin of Bronze. and as mentioned previously, Death Ray.
                          But Infernal (and Yozi) has Solar Circle Sorcery too, and can turn into one-wing angel. I think pretty much everybody with an Essence score of 8+ can cast SCS according to what I read on the Internet so it really isn't distinctly Solar anymore.
                          Last edited by Jen; 01-19-2018, 12:25 PM.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jen View Post
                            The character from Fate/Stay Night? Arrogant and decking in gold are stereotypical Solar traits, but I don't think "Having lots of Artifacts" has ever been something Solar is known for.

                            Though with them being Resonance with every MM it does provide an incentive to collect lots of Artifact, however there is no way to go Gilgamesh since learning Evocations takes lots of effort, not to mention that attunement drain your motepool.
                            Emiya Shirou very explicitly points out that Gilgamesh hasn't learned a single Evocation from anything but a few Artifacts in his massive horde.

                            In fact, possibly the only Artifact Gilgamesh has Evocations for is the artifact vault in which he keeps them all -- the Gate of Babylon, which allows him to treat his artifacts as supersonic arrows and remote defenses.

                            Giglamesh is no slouch in personal combat, either. His vault is why he's basically invincible in the Fate/Stay Night universe, but he's still a demigod warrior without it.


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                            • #29
                              Oh yeah, I forgot about Infernals.
                              Listen, Infernals were made for boss villainy, it's hard to beat them at it. But a Solar can definitely get some good boss cutscenes in there.


                              But sexually.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                                In fact, possibly the only Artifact Gilgamesh has Evocations for is the artifact vault in which he keeps them all -- the Gate of Babylon, which allows him to treat his artifacts as supersonic arrows and remote defenses.
                                He's got the Evocation for his sword Ea which allows him to unmake reality around him.

                                Its title is "Enuma Elish," which are the first words of the Sumerian creation myth. Anything called "In the Beginning" or its local equivalent needs to get treated with the utmost respect.

                                Originally posted by Jen View Post
                                I think pretty much everybody with an Essence score of 8+ can cast SCS according to what I read on the Internet so it really isn't distinctly Solar anymore.
                                I can't imagine that's true. The Incarnae writeups in Glories don't have SCS, and if they don't, lesser spirits don't. The Yozis do, and certain 3CDs might, but it's not a thing that powerful beings just get.


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