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  • #16
    Originally posted by Arian Dynas View Post
    material wealth is very meaningless to the Exalted, living or not.
    What do you think the Realm's tribute is about?


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

      What do you think the Realm's tribute is about?
      "Most Exalted have little difficulty accumulating some Resources if they wish," - Exalted 3rd Edition Corebook, Page 164.

      My *point* being that to the Deathlords and a great many other Exalted, unlike say D&D adventurers, the accumulating of wealth is seldom a goal in and of itself. Even the Empress did it as a show of power, to decorate her lavish court, to deprive the lands in the threshold of strength, to suit her appetites, etc. I don't really see there being many exalts who are all about making that cash money as the sole point of their goals unless they have some intimacy to the effect of " Defining Tie: Gold (Rapacious Avarice)".


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Arian Dynas View Post

        "Most Exalted have little difficulty accumulating some Resources if they wish," - Exalted 3rd Edition Corebook, Page 164.
        Some Resources. No Exalted is going to be begging for scraps unless they want to. There's a difference between that and having a palace full of caviar and servants, or feeding and arming a city. I don't mean to be confrontational, but I certainly do think that the accumulation of wealth is a common goal, though I rarely see PCs with such a motivation. Maybe in older Exalted, when the Essence Fever settles down a bit.

        We can probably ignore most Aztec and African tribal gods for example since they don't have the cachet in Western culture that, say Osiris does.
        Getting outside that cachet was one of the things that drew me to Exalted in the first place. Also, I know Vance is working on Scion and probably at least familiar with the pantheons in the core, which include the Aztec Teotl. (Which is good, because Mesoamerican death gods are a lot of fun stuff.)


        But sexually.

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        • #19
          And Mezoamerican stuff has always been an influence on Exalted. It varies on how much it influences the game (and I'd like a bit more, tbh), but it's always there.


          "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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          • #20
            And Osiris is an African god

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            • #21
              Mictlantecuhtli has to be one of the more intriguing death deities there is, so the notion of ignoring Aztec mythology strikes me as a highly significant oversight.


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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              • #22
                Originally posted by Arian Dynas View Post
                Seeming an abandoned thread of a similar theme, I find myself a bit curious about the Deathlords and what they're likely to be "themed" after concerning the whole "themes of the deathlords inherent in Abyssal charms" this edition. So let's chat about it.

                Here's my thoughts; what're yours?
                Nine attributes to bind them, Nine deathlords to rule them all?
                Strength - The First and Foresaken Lion - the Hollow General.
                Stamina - The Dowager of the Irreverent Vulgate in Unrent Veils - the Savage Governess
                Dexterity - Princess Magnificent with Lips of Coral and Robes of Black Feathers - the Lissom Assassin
                Charisma - The Mask of Winters - the Brazen Conquorer.
                Manipulation - The Bodhisattva Anointed by Dark Water - the Social Engineer
                Appearence - The Lover Clad in a Rainment of Tears - the Jaded Hedonist.
                Intelligence - Eye and Seven Despairs - the Gothic Mad Scientist.
                Wits - The Bishop of the Chalcedony Thuribule - the Nihlistic Occultist
                Perception - The Walker in Darkness - the Warrior Priest

                ​Well, some of them are not an exact fit, and yes I know Abyssals are Ability Exalts, but they do seem to line up reasonably well.

                Last edited by Greyman; 02-04-2018, 10:44 AM.

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                • #23
                  I always thought of the Bishop as the Nihilist Buddha, freeing you from the cycle of reincarnation by ending you utterly. If you meet the Bishop on the road, he kills you, for what purpose is there in existence?


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    Mictlantecuhtli has to be one of the more intriguing death deities there is, so the notion of ignoring Aztec mythology strikes me as a highly significant oversight.
                    I said that at first from the thought in me head that "Well, they'd want to communicate the relative alien-ness of the Underworld, while at the same time thinking that there are alot of Mezoamerican death gods who don't have the recognition factor of say Quetzalcoatl that would make their specific themes "resonate" with alot of people.

                    Then I remembered about Xipe Totec and realized "That sounds alot like the Dowager"

                    I'd argue Mictlantecuhtli could also be combined with the Flayed God, considering the Dowager also wears a skull on her head as a crown. Going by her 1e picture at least, which I know isn't very reliable going by the just plain weird one for the Mask of Winters but hey.

                    Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
                    And Osiris is an African god
                    Sure, but who's going to know who Ogbunabali is these days?


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                    • #25
                      I think some of this conversation is leaning far too heavily into the idea of drawing inspiration for Deathlords from death gods rather than ghost archetypes, extending it to the area of Deathlords as pre-existing characters with a different name and face.

                      ​It doesn't matter if people don't know who Ogbunabali is. If one is going to bring them up for discussion, then describe the pertinent details. If they were to ever be used as an inspiration in a Deathlord, all that would matter is the relevant details being included in that presentation of the Deathlord.

                      ​One doesn't need to know the Odysseus story to have Desus and Oliphem described to them.

                      ​Hell, half of the settings in Scavenger Sons are based fairly directly on science fiction stories of various levels of exposure (I'm certainly sure that I had not heard of most or read any of them), but it still functions in its own right.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                        ​Hell, half of the settings in Scavenger Sons are based fairly directly on science fiction stories of various levels of exposure (I'm certainly sure that I had not heard of most or read any of them), but it still functions in its own right.
                        Which science fiction stories were these?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          I think some of this conversation is leaning far too heavily into the idea of drawing inspiration for Deathlords from death gods rather than ghost archetypes, extending it to the area of Deathlords as pre-existing characters with a different name and face.

                          ​It doesn't matter if people don't know who Ogbunabali is. If one is going to bring them up for discussion, then describe the pertinent details. If they were to ever be used as an inspiration in a Deathlord, all that would matter is the relevant details being included in that presentation of the Deathlord.

                          ​One doesn't need to know the Odysseus story to have Desus and Oliphem described to them.

                          ​Hell, half of the settings in Scavenger Sons are based fairly directly on science fiction stories of various levels of exposure (I'm certainly sure that I had not heard of most or read any of them), but it still functions in its own right.
                          Well sure, but I don't think we're to the "iterate"step so much as the "identify" one. We don't know what "Death Gods" we should be pulling from as our source of possible interpretation/Information.

                          But following your logic, fine let's look at one of the Deathlords, since your argument seems to be one of "we're doing it backwards"

                          Taking one we're really familiar with, let's say Mask of Winters. I think we can safely discard alot of his 2e interpretation, so I'll draw from 1e stuff.

                          He's a murderer, for one (or at least in the personal sense. They're all murderers in the grand scheme of things). He's filled with ambition and unfinished business since he remembers the most about his former life among all the Deathlords. He's body-horror in a visceral yet still bloodless sense since he reverses his joints with this terrible cracking noise, yet he's not like the Dowager, streaked with gore and filth. He's a powerful sorcerer, mad out of his mind, and seems to bear an association with an almost cold look at the grave; he's dispassionate. He's angry without being "hot" and wrathful like the Dowager or the Lion. He's unflinchingly polite, and yet profoundly arrogant. Self-assured of his complete superiority. He wants to rule over the dead and the living alike, not from making them love the state, like the Silver Prince does, but from incredible authoritarian power. He demands submission to a point that even Juggernaught crawls on its hands and knees. He's a mystery; you literally don't know if he's coming or going, his goals and plans are told to few, and yet he's an arch manipulator, trying to direct even his fellows, and slowly succeeding with the Walker. He's got an associatiation with secrets, espcially given his relationship with the Green Lady.

                          So, a being that's secretive, ambitious, dispassionate, arrogant, authoritarian, obviously if he's derived from a god of death in terms of idea space it isn't one of the nice ones.

                          (Conversely the thought occurs that maybe we should also be looking at Uhlume from Tales of the Flat Earth, since he's a big mover and shaker there and Exalted is nothing if not "Tales from the Flat Earth: The Anime: The RPG")


                          Need some Tunes for your Exalted Game? http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-exalted-tunes
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                          • #28
                            I thought mask of winters was the spymaster of the deathlords

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by VioletDreamer View Post

                              Which science fiction stories were these?
                              I shall quote John Snead directly:
                              Yep, which was also in keeping with my decision when writing Scavenger Sons to never use any inspiration from fantasy novels and to use inspirations from SF whenever I could (tree octopi are a Traveller reference). For example, the Haslanti are what you get when I combine Alan Dean Foster's Ice Rigger & Ursula K. Leguin's The Left Hand of Darkness. Halta is Andre Norton's two Janus books + Alan Dean Foster's Midworld, Rathess is a combination of several of Andre Norton's ruined cities... Also, the Lintha's hidden port of Bluehaven was inspired by the Guild's Waystar(described in several Andre Norton novels).


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                                I always thought of the Bishop as the Nihilist Buddha, freeing you from the cycle of reincarnation by ending you utterly. If you meet the Bishop on the road, he kills you, for what purpose is there in existence?
                                ​You know, that's not really very far off from actual Buddhism, at least in the sense of what it equates escape from reincarnation to.

                                ​After all, at least in its original iteration, Buddhism states that desire for existence inevitably produces suffering, hence the spiritual state to aspire to is a form of existence devoid of awareness or consciousness.

                                ​I also wonder if the Bishop would need something more to go on, since the idea that life is meaningless is a rather thin justification for ending it.

                                ​Now, if he had something like the philosophy of Sartre, with the idea existence is both actively undesirable and perpetuated by weakness, casting himself in the role of the one who has the strength to end you that you lack, that would be something.

                                As goes the depiction of the Bishop in the Kickstarter preview... I honestly still had some issues with that, and how it still invoked the concept of Oblivion.

                                ​I always found a problem in the setting with the idea of certain forms of pontificating about Oblivion and it being something that there was an actual known, tangible access point to. It comes through again in the portrayal of the Bishop having an idea that it's not enough for people to jump into the Void, but that they need to be part of his own spiritually elevated self first. It leaves me with the question, if the end result is the same, and the passage is accessible, what's the distinction? His motive doesn't necessarily need to be reasoning, although it at least requires a bit more elaboration than just "he's crazy", because that's lazy writing.

                                ​Perhaps I could reconcile it by focusing on the idea that it's a crossover between his ego (as suggested in the preview) and a kind of spiritual racketeering. That it's not so much a matter of the Bishop believing himself to be a method as transit is mechanically necessary, as narcissism demanding that people see him to be so. The Bishop wants to confine all souls to Oblivion, but he wants to validate himself beforehand, and that entails presenting himself as the necessary doorway and denying or hiding all alternative paths.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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